Comparison of responsible and not-so-responsible breeders

[Miniequine]

The cost of a regular gelding here in Virginia... right at 800.00

 

[Songcatcher]

The cost of a regular gelding here in Virginia... right at 800.00

And who says there's no money to be made in horses? You just have to know what area. :arg!

 

[Champ]

Now more than ever with the economy the way it is, wether your a "irresonsible or responsible" breeder unless you plan on keeping the foal for it's whole life.... 30 to 40 years ...... it has a chance of becoming food on someones plate, rug to lay on, abused, starved etc.....

most stallions make better geldings & most mares don't need to have a foal......

 

[chandab]

The cost of a regular gelding here in Virginia... right at 800.00

That is utterly ridiculous.

 

[K.C. Lunde]

I agree with ya'll.. I believe a good breeder takes care of their animals.. making sure feet are done, horses are in good shape and teeth are being looked after..

 

[kaykay]

We were never able to show our horses extensively, but I always believed it was important to show what I could (especially what I bred) so that my horses could prove themselves in the ring before being bred. I feel like we did really well over the years for beign a small farm and training and showing our own. So it can be done but it is a ton of work and money.

And I have always given discounts to homes I knew would show what they bought from me because I know first hand the expense and work involved.

In all our years I think I have only sold 2 intact stallions of my own breeding. I have one more right now that is intact that I bred as we were hoping to cross him before hubby got so sick.

I have an issue when people that do not show but advertise their foals or horses as "show quality" when they have rarely if ever shown a horse. Its really easy to say a horse is show quality but at some point you have to prove it. Its not enough to buy horses with show records and then automatically think or advertise that makes the foals show quality. If only it was that easy LOL.

At the end of the day though I do not think you HAVE to show to be a responsible breeder. But you do have to show and win (or sell to show homes) to claim you are breeding show quality horses.

I have always said show season is such a tiny part of a horses life. There is so much more to it!

 

[Riverrose28]

I so agree with Kays response, we've spent thousands having our horses shown, and shown by us, and youth. Only problem is in this bad economy it hasn't helped sales at all. On the subject of gelding. I would love to be able to geld them all, but it is cost prohibitive. First off our vet charges $260 per geld and has a bunch of rules, will only geld after they are fully dropped, will not geld foals under 4 months, must be done before fly season, or after, and will only do 2 a day. So add that fee to maybe holding on the colt until he drops between 1 & 3 years of age, plus well foal care the day they are born, plus other costs, and you can't recoup that. I would be nice to keep all foals forever, but no one knows what the future holds. We were doing very fine until the stock market crash, lost jobs, illness and surgeries, so some of ours must go, even if I don't want them to, but for their own good.

 

[LittleBittyBritches]

We were never able to show our horses extensively, but I always believed it was important to show what I could (especially what I bred) so that my horses could prove themselves in the ring before being bred. I feel like we did really well over the years for beign a small farm and training and showing our own. So it can be done but it is a ton of work and money.

And I have always given discounts to homes I knew would show what they bought from me because I know first hand the expense and work involved.

In all our years I think I have only sold 2 intact stallions of my own breeding. I have one more right now that is intact that I bred as we were hoping to cross him before hubby got so sick.

I have an issue when people that do not show but advertise their foals or horses as "show quality" when they have rarely if ever shown a horse. Its really easy to say a horse is show quality but at some point you have to prove it. Its not enough to buy horses with show records and then automatically think or advertise that makes the foals show quality. If only it was that easy LOL.

At the end of the day though I do not think you HAVE to show to be a responsible breeder. But you do have to show and win (or sell to show homes) to claim you are breeding show quality horses.

I have always said show season is such a tiny part of a horses life. There is so much more to it!

Agreed Kay. We are new to showing, and while looking for sale horses, many people advertise perfect confirmation, or show quality, or whatever. And you can see they are not, and those people many times have never even seen a show! This makes it very hard as a newer farm trying to get started the "right way". We are still learning things everyday, and I imagine, will be learning new things all the time. Showing is fun, but can get expensive.

 

[R Whiteman]

It is interesting that not one person mentions that it would be equally or more responsible to spay inferior quality fillies before they are sold. How many fillies get sold to "pet" homes that end up producing most of their life? How many would spay mares if it only cost 400-800 dollars?

Responsible people take care of their animals. When asked about an animal they provide an honest history. This hold true if they work out of their back yard or a million dollar barn.

 

[Magic]

It is interesting that not one person mentions that it would be equally or more responsible to spay inferior quality fillies before they are sold. How many fillies get sold to "pet" homes that end up producing most of their life? How many would spay mares if it only cost 400-800 dollars?

Responsible people take care of their animals. When asked about an animal they provide an honest history. This hold true if they work out of their back yard or a million dollar barn.

Oh so true! How many times I have bought a horse only to have it be (MUCH) taller than stated! Or any number of other things not mentioned! It really makes you appreciate the honest sellers, thankfully I've dealt with many of those too. People that lie about their horses for sale or just "don't mention" pertinent facts are only trying to make money, they obviously don't give a hoot about their horses. When a buyer is happy with their new horse, the horse is going to be much happier too!

I don't agree with the statement on the dog chart that a breeder doesn't breed to their own sires, only breeding outside. That doesn't make sense, when one can buy a VERY nice stallion (especially these days!) and bring it home, rather than sending out any number of mares to outside stallions. I've bred a good number of mares to outside stallions, and brought in leased stallions to get outside bloodlines (and really nice sires) but it makes financial sense to also own at least one extremely nice stallion to breed one's mares to. JMO

 

[Katiean]

It is interesting that not one person mentions that it would be equally or more responsible to spay inferior quality fillies before they are sold. How many fillies get sold to "pet" homes that end up producing most of their life? How many would spay mares if it only cost 400-800 dollars?

Responsible people take care of their animals. When asked about an animal they provide an honest history. This hold true if they work out of their back yard or a million dollar barn.

I would not spay mares because of the risk involved. I would spay if the risk were less than the benefits.

 

[bluerogue]

Generally I try to stay away from threads like this. I have what most would see as a pretty lenient view on what a responsible breeder is (one who takes good care of their animals, registers, spays/neuters/gelds, and sells responsibly, while not poducing tons of babies that get dumped at auction). Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion on what is and is not a responsible breeder.

There was one statement that upset me... and that was that if one does not show, they have no idea what a show quality animal is. I don't show often, for several reasons, which I won't get into here (it will likely end up in an argument about politics, and I just don't want to start that). Just because I don't show often does not mean I am incapable of recognizing show quality stock. My personal preference runs towards more bone and substance than is the current trend and fad in the show ring. That does not mean I am not able to look at horses and tell which ones would be competitive in the show ring. Showing is not the be all and end all of miniature horses. There are many other things minis are good at, and showing in the breed ring is a small facet (if very visible) part of what minis can do. Making such a blanket statement is... unnecessary, and upsetting to some.

What would you say to the people that have been completely put off breed ring showing due to the atmsophere and treatment they've received at their local shows? This is a part of why I choose to not show often in breed shows. It's just not pleasant at times to show in the breed shows *here*. It's very political, and if you aren't with a big name trainer, you're lucky if the judges do more than glance at your horse. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but if I'm gonna spend a good bit of money to have fun with my horses, I'll do it somewhere where I will actually enjoy the activity. If that makes me irresponsible, well, I'm sorry. I don't agree.

 

[Lizzie]

It is interesting that not one person mentions that it would be equally or more responsible to spay inferior quality fillies before they are sold.

I did mention earlier, R. Whiteman, that there are just as many poor quality mares out there, as whole stallions. It is a more difficult operation to spay mares and incredibly more expensive, so we really don't see it very often. There again, most mares are only able to produce one foal a year, while a poor quality stallion, can produce quite large numbers.

Lizzie

 

[targetsmom]

Besides the expense - and risk - of spaying a mare, are the social considerations. I have mares I will never breed but they can be happily and safely turned out with my other mares and geldings. But that doesn't work for a colt that I decide to keep intact.

 

[Riverrose28]

I miss my respond button dirrectly under the post I want to respond to, but I'm not on internet exployer right now, any way to my point. Bluerouge, I understand your frustration. I don't know what post you are refering, but AS A BUSINESS, you must have horses shown, AS A HOBBY OR FOR PERSONAL REASONS, no. I too have a stallion that was not shown, as we were showing too many at the time, he is a little quarter horse type, and puts those great hips and shoulders on driving types. We did pay a trainer to show for us for our business, but do prefer to show on our own, and now don't have the money to pay a trainer. I too have seen the prejudice in the show ring, as the trainers do place higher then us ametuers, and was told by someone it was a money thing, still it is disheartening to say the least. Now with the economy being so bad we can't breed or show. We got into minis to show as that is our passion, and only bred a few mares a year to get foals to show, maybe sell a few to help pay for our habit. It doesn't always work out even if you have Champions or lawn ornaments, I have both. If you have a good eye then breed for what you want and don't worry about what others say. I have and someday hope to be breeding again when I get back on my feet.

 

[Riverrose28]

I can't edit in this browser, so I have to add somethings. We not only used to show and breed we do alot of breed promotion, at our own expense. We do 4-H demos, animal fair day, breed parades, rescue league demos, we take brochures with us and hand them out ASPC/Miniature sends them to me for free. We take horses, do the demos, answer questions, etc. you get the picture. Several months ago I started a thread cause I had gottem frustrated and made one of our members feel unwelcome, so didn't want to post at all on this one, but had to. What got me so frustrated the last time was I had met a woman at the animal fair, she fell in love with the minis, I spent alot of time with her, she didn't buy a mini from me, she bought a mini from a flipper at a low price, but no papers. Papers were promised but she didn't get them. She called me wanting to know if I know so and so, and could help her get her papers. Needess to say I don't think this woman ever got her papers. Not my problem, as a good breeder my buyers get their papers, plus anything else they need.

 

[bluerogue]

I agree that to run as a business, you must promote. My point was that everyone seems to be focused on breed ring shows. There are so many other things minis can do... from 4H, to carriage driving, to CDE. These are the things I'm pointing my program towards. While my stallion would be competitive in a breed ring in both halter and driving (once trained for it), he may or may not actually get there. It depends on how I'm feeling about the local politics, and if I can find someone (read: trainer/handler I trust) to handle him for me. I know he won't get looked at twice if I show him myself.

My point was that just because I'm focusing on a different area, doesn't mean that I'm not doing anything. I really enjoy taking the horses out and meeting people. I take the horses on walks, and people come out to see them, and ask questions. I've had people walk up to me in stalls at shows before, and they were shocked when I offer to bring out whichever horse for their kids to pet. It just doesn't happen here. They are always very happy that I'm willing, but it's not a common thing here.

Carriage driving and CDE in particular are gaining in popularity. It's been my experience so far that these areas are where my interest will continue to be, because it's just so much more pleasant. The people who are involved with them are just more friendly, and nice. If I ever move, I'll test out the local breed shows in the new area, but around here, it's just not a very fun and nice way to spend time.

 

[Genie]

Generally I try to stay away from threads like this. I have what most would see as a pretty lenient view on what a responsible breeder is (one who takes good care of their animals, registers, spays/neuters/gelds, and sells responsibly, while not poducing tons of babies that get dumped at auction). Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion on what is and is not a responsible breeder.

There was one statement that upset me... and that was that if one does not show, they have no idea what a show quality animal is. I don't show often, for several reasons, which I won't get into here (it will likely end up in an argument about politics, and I just don't want to start that). Just because I don't show often does not mean I am incapable of recognizing show quality stock. My personal preference runs towards more bone and substance than is the current trend and fad in the show ring. That does not mean I am not able to look at horses and tell which ones would be competitive in the show ring. Showing is not the be all and end all of miniature horses. There are many other things minis are good at, and showing in the breed ring is a small facet (if very visible) part of what minis can do. Making such a blanket statement is... unnecessary, and upsetting to some.

What would you say to the people that have been completely put off breed ring showing due to the atmsophere and treatment they've received at their local shows? This is a part of why I choose to not show often in breed shows. It's just not pleasant at times to show in the breed shows *here*. It's very political, and if you aren't with a big name trainer, you're lucky if the judges do more than glance at your horse. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but if I'm gonna spend a good bit of money to have fun with my horses, I'll do it somewhere where I will actually enjoy the activity. If that makes me irresponsible, well, I'm sorry. I don't agree.

I agree

 

[MountainWoman]

My point was that just because I'm focusing on a different area, doesn't mean that I'm not doing anything. I really enjoy taking the horses out and meeting people. I take the horses on walks, and people come out to see them, and ask questions.

Bluerogue,

That's my interest too. I really enjoy hiking with the horses, doing tricks, etc. and getting them out and about and enjoying them. I can't wait to start driving training as well. When I've purchased horses, I've looked for those who are more than beautiful. I wanted them to have willing attitudes and a curiosity about life that would lend itself to being more than just a pasture ornament. Maybe buyers are all looking for something different? Just a thought.

 

[My2Minis]

Carriage driving and CDE in particular are gaining in popularity. It's been my experience so far that these areas are where my interest will continue to be, because it's just so much more pleasant. The people who are involved with them are just more friendly, and nice. If I ever move, I'll test out the local breed shows in the new area, but around here, it's just not a very fun and nice way to spend time.

I am on the same page. I haven't done CDE but have done dressage and the CDE people I've met there are very laid back and friendly. If I get a new horse I'm less likely to seek out a registered one and more likely to buy a nice, friendly trainable horse with a big hip and good bone. The breed show ring wasn't fun and I didn't like the atmospere. I think there will always be a market for a nice mini with good bone and a great mind regardless of bloodlines, papers or show record.