Conformation/Critique on my two mares

[All Decked Out Mini Farm]

Hello Everyone!

I would love to know what you guys think about my two mares. I want the truth, even if its harsh. No sugar coating it. I am new to breeding miniature horses, and want to know if I have the best, or need to look into other mares. I would love to show some minis, but I have been told mixed feelings about my two mares being show horses or not. Any help would be great.

Buckeye WCF DayDream Believer - Sorrel frame sabino overo - LWO+ - AMHR - 37"



Fike's Cadillac Crystal - Buckskin frame sabino overo - LWO+ - AMHA/AMHR - 31 1/2"

 

[MiLo Minis]

To make a reasonably accurate assessment of any horse you need to see them standing square from the side on their level and one from the front and one from the back with the tail out of the way. It is also helpful to know the age of the horse. The height doesn't matter at all as conformation is/should be the same at any size.

 

[disneyhorse]

I have mixed feelings about your mares, too, as to quality. They look like they'd be good little driving horses if they're trained to drive, but as to halter/breeding animals I'm not sure. You only give one side conformation shot of the first one, but here's my critique since you haven't gotten much in the way of replies from everyone.

First, it's apparent to me that you selected bloodlines and color when making your purchases, since that is what jumps out first to me.

But conformationally they don't hold up for me.

The first mare has a very large and plain head and a very weak hip. Compared to a lot of the "over" minis today she lacks the refinement and uprightness that is so desired. But despite that, she looks like she could be a competitive country/roadster horse.

The second mare isn't as balanced as the first and has far heavier bone and a similar large plain head. She looks like she might have a shortish thick neck, and maybe a low tail set. She doesn't appear to have the same free movement that the first mare has. I can't tell much more without some standing shots...

When asking if they are breeding animals, its helpful to know WHAT you are breeding for. Someone wanting to breed Nationals halter-quality "over" minis isn't going to necessarily be looking for the same things a breeder of AMHA roadster horses may be looking for.

I see your horses have color and bloodlines to pass on, but maybe not pleasing conformation. The first mare has movement to pass on, but maybe not the smaller one.

I hope any of this is helpful.

 

[Lizzie]

It's always difficult to judge horses from pictures, since they sometimes look quite different in life. However, this is what I see here.

The first mare is interesting. She appears as two different horses. A lot more horse up-front, than in the rear. Place your hand over each half, and you'll see what I mean. Her head is not refined and appears a bit too large for her body. That said, she does have a lovely and kind eye. She seems to have a decent neck, throatlatch and shoulder. Taking into account that she is stretching in the pic, she seems to be a bit long in body. She also appears to be goose-rumped, but that could be made worse, because she has one rear leg cocked. Her tailset looks to be too low. She is severely lacking in hip. Very short from point of hip to point of buttock. A very common fault in Minis. Difficult to see, but I think I'd like to see a little longer pastern on her. She can obviously use herself well, so I think while she has her faults and is probably not breeding quality, she'd do wonderfully well in harness. I wouldn't show her in halter.

The second mare is obviously more compact and of more stocky a build. She definitely lacks length of neck. It also looks overly thick. Her head could be a little more refined. She has a low tailset. She also toes out. She might have a fancy trot on her, from what I see in the pic. Again, like the first mare, I don't think she's breeding quality but according to how she moves out, could do something in the cart.

If you do decide to ever breed either of these mares, you must make sure that the sire is not LWO positive. AND you must request to see the paperwork and not take someone's word that they are. I'd be interested to know why you chose these two girls.

I see you also have Gypsies. Do tell me who and what you have. We've been in Gypsies for a long time, but no longer breed.

Please know that the above is only my personal opinion. Others might have different thoughts.

Lizzie

 

[jandjmc]

Hi All Decked;

I would like to request different photos as I suspect your mares are nicer than the photos let on. The side photo of your taller mare looks likes her front feet are too far under herself. She also appears to be leaning forward. I like her action photos, she moves well with her head up. I like her head, though a bit long, she has wonderful large eyes and a good expression. The smaller mare again her photos make it very difficult. Try to get both sides with feet correctly under the horse, a square front and back. It is harder than it sounds-frequently I have to take 25-30 picts to find 3-4 I like. She is a heavier build than is presently popular in the showring , either halter or performance. Both mares are in pasture shape, so they would definitely improve their look if they were conditioned.

Also, it would be helpful to know the ages of the mares, dispositions and parentage of each, if you are planning on breeding.

As far as showing, if you think you would enjoy it, try first at a local level. See how it goes. Your mares are not typical halter types but may do well in performance and pullout out an occasional halter ribbon in a local show.

If you are looking for the best confirmation for the show ring/breeding, neither mare is an excellent example, however, I prefer to look at all 4 grandparents to see what a mare might be capable of producing. If you do breed them, I would look for the very best stallion you could find, one that is refined, lighter bodied and has an excellent pedigree.

Best of luck and would love to see more pics!

 

[minifreishorsefarm]

I agree with pretty much everything said above. I would drive them and not breed them. This just proves that bloodlines dont make a horse perfect. They are cute but I wouldnt buy either one personally. I would consider them pet quality mares. I have learned that the saying that breeding mediocre mares to an outstanding stallion will improve what the foal will look like is not necessarily true and isnt worth the outcome of a possibly pet grade foal. Breed good mares to good stallions or great mares to great stallions and you will be improving the breed and your own breeding program.

Marsha

 

[All Decked Out Mini Farm]

Thank you everyone for your opinions. I really appreciate them.

Dream is 9 years old. Her sire is Van Lo's patient pending and her sire is Van Lo's Dollywood Gold. She was bred to Flying W Farms Litte Wardance, and had a superb foal. I will always make sure to check the stallions she is bred to before I breed to make sure they aren't LWO positive.

Crystal is 8 years old. Her sire is Circle S Cadillac Jack, and dam is Fikes Sparkling Brook.

When I first started getting into minis, I started at a ranch where I was taking Driving lessons. I became really good friends with them, and bought one of there minis. They breed for performance horses, so heavier built minis. I honestly didn't know the difference between refined and stocky, so I got Dream. She would make an excellent driving horse, which I plan on breaking her here shortly. I am not against stocky horses, but the more I got connected to my friends on facebook, the more I learned about minis and how the show halter minis look, and I do prefer that over stocky minis.

Here are some better photos of Dream/Crystal/ and Dreams foal with Wardance.

Dreams colt with Wardance:



Better photos of Dream: This is the only one I could find that fits your description.



Crystal:





To answer Lizzies question, I don't own Gypsy Vanners, will definitely someday. My trainer owns 2 of them, and is breed leasing another. Beautiful horses though.

Hopefully next year I will be able to get more minis, not looking so good with the economy right now.

 

[minifreishorsefarm]

Thank you everyone for your opinions. I really appreciate them.

Dream is 9 years old. Her sire is Van Lo's patient pending and her sire is Van Lo's Dollywood Gold. She was bred to Flying W Farms Litte Wardance, and had a superb foal. I will always make sure to check the stallions she is bred to before I breed to make sure they aren't LWO positive.

Crystal is 8 years old. Her sire is Circle S Cadillac Jack, and dam is Fikes Sparkling Brook.

When I first started getting into minis, I started at a ranch where I was taking Driving lessons. I became really good friends with them, and bought one of there minis. They breed for performance horses, so heavier built minis. I honestly didn't know the difference between refined and stocky, so I got Dream. She would make an excellent driving horse, which I plan on breaking her here shortly. I am not against stocky horses, but the more I got connected to my friends on facebook, the more I learned about minis and how the show halter minis look, and I do prefer that over stocky minis.

To answer Lizzies question, I don't own Gypsy Vanners, will definitely someday. My trainer owns 2 of them, and is breed leasing another. Beautiful horses though.

Hopefully next year I will be able to get more minis, not looking so good with the economy right now.

The colt looks nice but IMO has too long of a body. I'm sorry, but I just dont like the way Dream looks. her neck looks very thin and very short, it doesnt go with the rest of her body. she doesnt seem to have much hip or a good shoulder either one

Crystal looks better of the two, a bit stocky, which I dont mind unless you want to show halter. Her head seems too big/long. But she is cute.

Marsha

 

[Lizzie]

I just realised where these mares came from. I see Dream is bred again. Her previous foal is nicer than she, but still long bodied in my opinion. The stallion couldn't overcome her faults unfortunately. Sorry to see Crystal lost her foal.

I believe Kelsey has a Gypsy mare we owned a few years ago. She produces lovely babies, bred correctly.

Lizzie

 

[MiLo Minis]

These are better photos for critiquing although I think we are not going to do Crystal justice because the photos are taken standing slightly to her front rather than full on the side making her hip look shorter than it is.

Dream has a very pretty face, a nice big soft eye, pretty little ears - she looks like she likely has a good temperament. She has a good length of jaw to prevent tooth difficulties. Nice clean throatlatch on a neck that is slightly short and underdeveloped for her age. It ties in a bit low at her chest and not as cleanly as I like to see. Her shoulder is a bit on the steep side but it matches her hip angle which is also steep. Good set of withers on her to prevent a saddle sliding forward. Her topline is not the best with that dip in front of the withers, poor balance in her body with her hip being shorter than her shoulder and back, gooserumped with a low tailset. Somewhat butt high and at her age that won't change. Her legs appear to be decently put together on a whole althou she is straight through the stifle putting her back legs out from under herself a bit. Her feet are a bit steep compare to the angle of her fetlocks on the front but they look to be good solid feet in good shape. I think this is a performance mare not a halter horse and I am not sure that I would breed with her- certainly not to the previous stallion. The photo of the colt she already produced is almost a carbon copy of the dam with only slight improvement from the sire. She appears to move well but I would want to know the circumstances when the photos were taken. The first few moments when a horse comes out of its stall are always a bit exceptional and do not necessarily represent what a horse will offer on a constant basis. This mare doesn't appear to have the power needed in her back end to be a great driving horse and may breakdown physically over time. You would need to be careful with her conditioning.

Crystal is a cute little mare. Stockier than what is popular for halter but overall put together better than Dream. She is more balanced through her body and I think if we could see her from dead on the side she divides evenly in thirds although she may be a bit short in the hip. Her hip and shoulder angles seem to match ( hard to say for certain) but they are both a bit steep. That combined with the acute angle of her humerus give her a very short stride. She has a good straight leg set on each corner. She has a better'topline than the above mare and better thickness through her waist giving her a nicer bottomline as well.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Had to continue here.....darned tablet!

Crystal's fetlocks are typical small pony short and steep but her feet match the angle so won't be cause for concussion. Of the two mares I would be more inclined to breed with this one attempting to find a stallion she niches with that will give her some refinement and better movement. I think Crystal would make for a good little halter performance mare if she has the smarts and temperament typical of her build.

 

[ohmt]

I don't like to do critiques, but to be fair, Dream's colt is quite long in the back, yes, but that comes from Wardance, not Dream. She did seem to pass on her very weak hip though. I think she needs some groceries (protein) and that will really help her build some of the muscle she is lacking.

 

[Lizzie]

Don't you agree though, that Dream is also long backed? Probably Wardance wasn't the ideal mate for her either. I was trying to think of good profile shots of horses with nice, short backs. Look up Van Lo's Overo Kid Calico on google and hit 'images'. I think he's a stallion with a lovely short back and beautiful big hip and super shoulder.

I've not seen Dream's sire, but have seen a few others of his get and they seem to have that dip in front of the wither. Interesting how traits are passed along.

Lizzie

 

[All Decked Out Mini Farm]

Thank you again everyone for your critiques. Yes, Dream is very long in the back. I think I need to study some miniature horse anatomy and then look at examples. I want to breed for the best, so If Dream and Crystal aren't breeding quality, then I might just have to retire them and find some mares that are suitable for breeding. After this foal that Dream is carrying, I will retire her. Hopefully by the end of this year/ beginning of next year I will be able to get some more mares. Would I be able to contact any of you guys when I am ready to purchase so you could help me figure out which horse will be right for breeding? I would really appreciate that.

Thanks everyone for your help.

 

[disneyhorse]

I'm always available for conformation critiques on possible purchases.