Conformational Flaws

[Little Wolf Ranch]

We all know every horse isn't perfect **covers up all mini ears** when it comes to conformation so I would like to know what are some things that you let "slide" when you look for a new horse to add to the herd. 

Since a great performance mini doesn't require the same conformation/conditioning that a halter mini does - tell me what you would let slide if you were only showing performance and what you would let slide if only showing halter. 

I am excited to hear from everyone what has to say!

 

[chandab]

I have a couple that a slightly cow-hocked, they might not make it in the halter ring, but holy cow can they move. They aren't trained yet, but they are young, so I have plenty of time (mostly I just haven't gotten it done yet).

 

[Mominis]

Hi Katie!

Again, I am the newb here but in any horse, for performance, I don't mind seeing a cow hocked horse, they tend to be able to 'dig' under themselves a bit more for more lofty motion. I also don't mind if the cannons are a bit offset in a performance horse as long as it doesn't result in 'rope walking' or 'dishing.' I also don't mind a horse that falls off a bit behind, provided that the angle of the illium was conductive to pushing power from the hindquarters. However, I would eliminate a horse from consideration for in hand showing for any of the above faults. Faults that I would not allow in either division would include poor lower leg conformation, being staright in the hock, tying in poorly at the neck, a downhill build, and lack of ambition. A horse has to WANT to do his job to be successful. JMHO.

I have noticed that, like the earlier Arabian, the minis can lean toward having too long of a foreleg and extremely short cannons, which result in choppy and unattractive movement. The knees cannot be offest in any way from the forearm or it will negatively effect the motion, which will effect the horse in both conformation classes and performance, from what I understand in reading the rulebook. A balanced horse that moves well off of both ends, has a leg at each corner, and can come up well out of the shoulder would be a much more attractive indiviual to me.

 

[kaykay]

I dont think having a halter horse at all excludes it from being a performance horse. Granted you can have a performance horse that cannot do halter but you can have it all in one horse and you see it much more now

For sure every horse has a fault.

Faults I can accept as long as there is something else spectacular

Cow hocks (mild)

Bit of a long nose

larger ears

plain head

lower tail set

Faults I will NOT accept on any breeding horse

Bad bite

Sickle hocks

bad knees

pig eyes

long backs

upturned nostrils

u necked

too straight of a shoulder and pasturns

 

[Minimor]

Things I won't accept when I'm shopping:

-Thin/straight stifles--we don't have one single horse with a stifle problem & I intend to keep it that way

-Necks that are too low set or ewed or very short/thick

-bad bite

-short hip or a dropped off rear end. Hip must have good length to it, with the tail set on reasonably high

-badly set on hind legs (viewed from the side--this is a common problem in minis)

-crooked legs....things like toed in, splayed out in front, bench kneed, calf kneed, over at the knee, tied in below the knee...on the hind legs I don't want sickle hocks or camped out conformation (similar to my previous item about badly set on legs, but different from what I was referring to there), or bowed legs. A little bit cow hocked is okay as long as it's not severe

-straight shoulder

-short legs/long body conformation

--meaty hocks or thin hocks, one is as bad as the other

--domed heads

--heads with heavy muzzles and thick nostrils

Things I will compromise on:

- pretty head - I will accept plain head as long as it's not a drop dead ugly head

- flat croup - can be somewhat round as long as it's not a bubble butt and as long as it has good length of hip and is just a big rounded, not chopped off or peaked.

 

[targetsmom]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is anything about adequate chest width or depth. I think this is very important in a performance horse (or a halter horse) but I see a lot of minis with narrow chests. I sometimes think people confuse "refined" with "narrow-chested". This is a flaw I won't accept in any horse.

 

[krissy3]

my horse has a narrow chest...its a bit like mine actually.were both an "A".

I am just dealing with this issue right now. My horse is pretty but not perfect "show quality".for halter. She is a bit too high strung for a driving prospect, but is a great Liberty horse. I love her all the same , and will continue showing her even if it means I wont get a blue (white here) . I am going to overlook her flaws, and she will do the same for me, Ive got a big rear end, and short legs, she is doing better than I am looks wise.

 

[Minimor]

Chests--yes, that's one thing I didn't mention in my earlier post. IMO too wide is just as bad as too narrow, for different reasons. I would rather have a little narrow than a little too wide; having had a Morgan gelding with a very narrow chest, I'm not overly concerned by a somewhat narrow chest. Anyone would have looked at that gelding and said he could surely have no wind or stamina, because with that narrow chest he could have no room for heart and lung capacity, but such was not the case. That horse could go all day and was a trotting fool. In all the years I rode him I only ever encountered one horse that he couldn't out trot, and that was a younger gelding that we also owned. Any horse that could trot--a full out, flying road trot, down the road or trail (not just 5 minutes in the show ring)--like that boy could trot did not have a heart/wind problem!

In any case, as long as the horse has a nice V shape to his forearms/chest then that is acceptable. If both front legs appear to come out of the same hole, then that is too narrow. If the chest is so wide that it forms a square shape--or more square than V shape--then that is much too wide.

 

[Jessica_06]

I agree with everything said above, Please keep in mind a good halter horse that is well-balanced also makes a great performance horse for countless reasons. I had a horse of my breeding complete his HOF in both Halter and Driving this year, so it just shows you that a good halter horse can make a great driving horse as well.

~Jessica

 

[kaykay]

Theres probably a lot we all left off LOL Bull dog chests are a big no no and nope I dont like a narrow one either. my friend Ginia used to say its looks like 2 legs coming out of one arm hole LOL

I will say though a nice chest is usually one of the last things to mature on a horse especially it seems on stallions

 

[susanne]

The idea that halter classes might be judged on anything but conformation suitable for performance is, to me, ludricous and has been the downfall of several breeds.

Form follows function. The only good conformation is that which creates a horse that is sound and useful, not just one that looks great standing at the end of a lead. Whether leggy and refined or more baroque in build, good conformation (as outlined in previous posts) adds up to a horse who can move and hold up through the years.

Hopefully these well-conformed horses are also bred for temperament and are mentally as well as physically suited for performance.

 

[krissy3]

Just a question...Is it fair to say that the body of a horse is not fully developed until the age of 4? I have a gelding that went through a lot of body changes in his 2 and 3 year old phase, and another that was still changing at 4 and didnt really settle in till he was about 6.With these 2 boys they really filled out , and developed their leg action on their own slowly over time , with good food and plenty of space. That being said , is it fair to critique (sp) a yearling or 2 year old? I know the basic body shape will always be there ... but slight flaws might really be a phase that they are going through at the time and can get over. I have seen fillys one year and thought they were awful , then the next year they looked beautiful, I think some mature look wise a lot slower then others. Another question... if we have so many unsuitable horses out there in conformation and as halter horses, isnt that a sign that we are not being selective enough with breeding , and over breeding these animals. When we have more unsuitable ones then good ones then there is something very wrong with the breed, or breeding process. Same goes with the fact that you can pick one up at an auction dirt cheap or free,before the slaughter trucks come to get them, I say this because we are having this problem here in Europe, we are breeding too many shetlands ( lots of them going to the butcher ) so next year there will be a new law passed that breeders horses must be evaluated.( that is what I understand , I could be wrong) I think mares and stallions should no longer be hardshipped into the club JMO. And if you breed something unsuitable , have it gelded, or take away the papers, or maybe give the mare a red mark on the papers so she can be shown but no breeding. Just an idea.Isnt there a way to have brood mares and stallions evaluated by someone to ensure breeders will be more selective in their breeding program, and to stop the backyard breeding? sorry to get off the subject , but I think its an important topic, because its becomming a problem with this breed and many others.

 

[Leeana]

I will not let anything slide on the legs - All of my horses must have straight legs set well apart, flat on the knee, no hocks going in or out and toe straight as well as move straight. To me, the most basic thing a breeding horse should have is correct legs and bite - those two are just musts.

I like dark clear eyes and correct ears, not to long not to wide not to narrow with a nice "tip" to them. I want a horse with a nice head that is not to long from eyes to nose and a pretty muzzle and a nice jaw that compliments the face. I am a neck person - I want a nice tight neck, no drooping under the neck and i want that set high off that shoulder. Now i would let a "medium" neck set slide but not a neck that comes out of the ground - sorry. I want a shoulder that has enough depth to it to allow tone infront of that. I want a shoulder, the line where the neck comes out I want a good amount of slope to lay that back but not to far. I want a nice topline and croup - I personally like a longer croup with a higher tailset. Tailset is one thing I could let go just a little bit, however will not settle for a tailset that comes out of the ground! I personally do not like the Quarter Horse butt's on the minis / ponies ... I think a lot of tone below the croup and tailset is great but I am not sure i would like to see a huge QH looking butt on my horses. All of my horses have nice stifles with tone going all the way down. Legs - I hate pencil legs, I like legs that are sturdy but not to thick. I do not like a horse that is to straight in the stifle either - another thing i will not let slide.

Some thing I could let slide ... i would settle for a "medium" neck set as long as it was not to low. A tailset that could be a smidge higher, but I don't think i could stand to look at a tailset that came out half way between the top of the croup and the stifles - yuck. I could settle for a smidge longer of a back in a broodmare.

Legs are just the basis that i will not compromise.

 

[krissy3]

I will not let anything slide on the legs - All of my horses must have straight legs set well apart, flat on the knee, no hocks going in or out and toe straight as well as move straight. To me, the most basic thing a breeding horse should have is correct legs and bite - those two are just musts.
I like dark clear eyes and correct ears, not to long not to wide not to narrow with a nice "tip" to them. I want a horse with a nice head that is not to long from eyes to nose and a pretty muzzle and a nice jaw that compliments the face. I am a neck person - I want a nice tight neck, no drooping under the neck and i want that set high off that shoulder. Now i would let a "medium" neck set slide but not a neck that comes out of the ground - sorry. I want a shoulder that has enough depth to it to allow tone infront of that. I want a shoulder, the line where the neck comes out I want a good amount of slope to lay that back but not to far. I want a nice topline and croup - I personally like a longer croup with a higher tailset. Tailset is one thing I could let go just a little bit, however will not settle for a tailset that comes out of the ground! I personally do not like the Quarter Horse butt's on the minis / ponies ... I think a lot of tone below the croup and tailset is great but I am not sure i would like to see a huge QH looking butt on my horses. All of my horses have nice stifles with tone going all the way down. Legs - I hate pencil legs, I like legs that are sturdy but not to thick. I do not like a horse that is to straight in the stifle either - another thing i will not let slide.

Some thing I could let slide ... i would settle for a "medium" neck set as long as it was not to low. A tailset that could be a smidge higher, but I don't think i could stand to look at a tailset that came out half way between the top of the croup and the stifles - yuck. I could settle for a smidge longer of a back in a broodmare.

Legs are just the basis that i will not compromise.

We would all like one of those ...however , even with great looking parents the foals dont always come out like we planned. How many of you get perfect foals every time you breed? What Id like to know is what do you do with the ones that wont qualify for halter or performance, the ones that you wont accept, because they are too narrow , or wide in the chest , or that have cow hocks , or stiffel issues... you sell them to an inexpierenced buyer.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Chests--yes, that's one thing I didn't mention in my earlier post. IMO too wide is just as bad as too narrow, for different reasons. I would rather have a little narrow than a little too wide; having had a Morgan gelding with a very narrow chest, I'm not overly concerned by a somewhat narrow chest. Anyone would have looked at that gelding and said he could surely have no wind or stamina, because with that narrow chest he could have no room for heart and lung capacity, but such was not the case. That horse could go all day and was a trotting fool. In all the years I rode him I only ever encountered one horse that he couldn't out trot, and that was a younger gelding that we also owned. Any horse that could trot--a full out, flying road trot, down the road or trail (not just 5 minutes in the show ring)--like that boy could trot did not have a heart/wind problem!
In any case, as long as the horse has a nice V shape to his forearms/chest then that is acceptable. If both front legs appear to come out of the same hole, then that is too narrow. If the chest is so wide that it forms a square shape--or more square than V shape--then that is much too wide.

One thing people mistake is thinking that the chest, i.e. the part we see from the front, is the same thing as the heart-girth or ribcage. It's not! Both my Arabian, Spyderman, and my first mini, Kody, had very narrow chests when I got them. They had not been worked and completely lacked muscle through that area, allowing the scapulas to "squeeze together" and causing the forelegs to appear too close. (Straight, but too close.) What some people don't realize is that the foreleg assembly of the horse is not physically connected to the rest of the skeleton by any joint so the only things holding them to the body are muscles, ligaments and tendons. This is not a set width. When my two horses were put into a steady work program the muscles of the sternum and chest area strengthened and thickened and their forelegs literally moved further apart. Of course I do prefer a naturally nice square solid chest, but I'm quite willing to overlook a narrow one as this is one aspect of apparent conformation that can be changed through work. Now the ribcage, on the other hand, you're stuck with. If the horse doesn't have good depth through the heartgirth and width through the ribs to allow lung expansion there's nothing you can do. I've seen broad-chested horses with slabby ribs and narrow-chested horses with perfectly good heartgirths, so I'm going to look at each aspect separately when making a purchase.

Just a question...Is it fair to say that the body of a horse is not fully developed until the age of 4? I have a gelding that went through a lot of body changes in his 2 and 3 year old phase, and another that was still changing at 4 and didnt really settle in till he was about 6.With these 2 boys they really filled out , and developed their leg action on their own slowly over time , with good food and plenty of space. That being said , is it fair to critique (sp) a yearling or 2 year old? I know the basic body shape will always be there ... but slight flaws might really be a phase that they are going through at the time and can get over. I have seen fillys one year and thought they were awful , then the next year they looked beautiful, I think some mature look wise a lot slower then others.

Good point. I think the conformation is pretty solid by 5 years old but in my experience a male horse especially will continue to fill out and muscle up for several years after that. They can look quite different by 6 or 7!

Leia

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

Could I see some pictures of cow hocked minis from slightly. . .to mild and then to severe? I would also like to see what a horse who is "over in the knee" looks like - I don't think I have ever seen that.

Thanks

Katie

 

[Lisa Strass]

For me, I want my halter horses to be able to perform (drive) as well. This means the only faults that I am willing to overlook on my driving horses pertain to the head (longer nose, smaller eye, flatter profile, longer ears, etc). Other than that, I am looking for the same qualities in my driving and halter horses.

 

[HGFarm]

I agree that the halter vs. performance difference in judging has ruined many other breeds and is ridiculous. The reason halter classes were created was to show off the best of the horses that were probably also performing what they were bred to do, to show they are CORRECT for what they were bred for- and I can bet you it wasn't just to stand there as a yard ornament. I appreciate a horse that can do it all-and if they dont have correct conformation, they will not be able to do it well for long without breaking down or having other problems.

So I also simply do not understand why so many breeds think that halter conformation should be something different than working conformation?

A good cattle working or rope horse has got to be able to get it's rear end and legs underneath it to squat and slide if needed, and it is harder on a horse that has absolutely straight hocks vs. one that is a tiny bit 'hocky' as I call it.

Look through some of the Arabian magazines and check out some of those top stallions with BIG action.. Their hocks are in some, not straight out behind them. But they also need strong loins and other things to be able to move right........

Someone asked what happens to the ones that 'dont turn out right' - sell them to unexperienced people? I have always been my own worst critic, and though some unscrupulous folks may do that.... I am the first to point out every fault my horses have. And I am not above pointing those faults out to folks... however a horse that slightly toes out in front or back, whose neck ties in lower than I like, or has something that might not make it in a halter or top performance class, can make perfectly good pets for folks who are not interested in showing, etc.... or who might just want a neighborhood driving horse for the kids or something........ They are sold as pet quality- not as breeding stock. It doesnt mean they are not good for anything- just not a top prospect for the show ring.