Country or Western Country?

[Field-of-Dreams]

This was at this year's Area 5 show. We did enter the Country Pleasure class. He was first in Ammy (out of three) and 5th or 6th out of eight in Open.

IMHO, I think he could go western. He's level, smooth and quiet. The horses that beat him had a lot more flash and action, and a higher headset.

Opinions? Stay in CP, or try the western?

Lucy

 

[drivin*me*buggy]

: Wow he looks like quite the driving horse. I don't know what it's like where you are but I've heard that there a lot of horses in country pleasure that should be in regular pleasure, which means they seem to win when they are supposed to be in a different class any way

: . I really don't know the difference between country pleasure & western country pleasure, but your horse looks very much like what I imagine as a regular CP horse. I'm sure others that actually know the classes better will be able to tell you better, What a handsome Fella you have there

: . I did just look at him again I think he could go either honestly.

Ash

 

[txminipinto]

Lucy,

Here is the Area V Western Country Pleasure Under Stakes winner, Diamond Horseshoes Ima Toy Two.

Lee Crutchfield was very complimentary of this stallion as a representative of a WCP horse. I'm not a driving trainer and sure not an expert, but he is an absoulte joy to drive. I drove him in a VERY loose overcheck and a VERY loose rein.

Hope this helps! :saludando:

Opps, as usual...my photos are HUGE!

 

[HGFarm]

Ok, I thought that CP was supposed to be the more relaxed class with less action, so I am not sure I understand at all the difference between it and WCP??? Can anyone define this with examples of say, in CP the head is set at this point, etc... vs. WCP where it is this way... ?? Also speed and motion as well??

Thanks much

 

[shalamara minis]

From what I was told on this form earlier today it looks like both horses heads are a little to high.

 

[Lisa Strass]

Lucy,

From your Area V picture, I would say Country Pleasure.

I've ridden (and won) on Western Pleasure horses, and personally (my humble opinion), I just don't care for that look in harness. I don't think AMHR knows exactly what the standard is yet, (How loose is loose on a loose rein?) which makes it a little challenging. If you wanted to give the Western Country Pleasure class a shot, first lower his head, so his poll is level or lower than his withers. Then, like the rest of us, stay tuned to see how this class is placed at Nationals! I hope a basic level of horsemanship is maintained for this class and it doesn't just turn into a driving class for horses with no headset and no collection / balance. (Putting on my flame suit.)

 

[mondak]

lower than the withers!!! :new_shocked: I too rode western pleasure for awhile and hated the look. That was under saddle so you can imagine what I would think of that look under harness...I think this may open a gateway for less talented horses to come in, that said I do not think that they will place over the ones who are fit and can at least move evenly with rhythm and freeness. I would love to see my gelding go into the Western Pleasure class, he just can't compete with the ex-pleasure horses that move to CP , but I would never throw all my training about coming off the forehand and relaxing his jaw and poll to put his head below the withers. *Sigh* guess we will stick with CP until the WP class has some realistic guidelines.

Courtney

P.S. I think both horses are gorgous btw and I think your boy would do well in CP myself.

 

[disneyhorse]

Here is a YouTube video of a Quarter Horse driving class. Naturally, being drawn to more HACKNEY types I find this horrifying but to each his own.

I imagine in the minis, the head wouldn't be THIS low, the rulebook wants it more level with the withers.

As to the pictures posted, the horses are checked up a bit too high for AMHR Western CP.

Here is the video:

YouTube Video: QH Western Driving

Andrea

 

[ruffian]

I'd like to know what WP is also. I saw a Quarter Horse national driving class on the tube one time, and, not to tick anybody off, it looked like a bunch of old milk wagon horses going around. I surely HOPE this isn't what's being expected.

:lol:

 

[txminipinto]

What they are looking for (or at least from what I've been told) is a relaxed, consistant easy going driving horse. A horse with his poll at or just above his withers (yes, Toy in this pic has his head up, but that is his normal relaxed stance at an extended trot and at a slower gate he drops his head level with his withers). A LOOSE check rein and a relaxed rein (not QH western pleasure loose for neck reining or spur stops - which we can't do). Toy fits this class to a tee, but to show him CP and to do well, I have to check him up further and really pull his head in which is totally un-natural for him. He's getting points in the CP classes but he's not at the top of the class and WP fits him better. I think we all need to approach this class with an open mind and wipe away the images we all have of the QH peanut roller types. That is not what this class is about.

Nationals will definately be interesting in this class' placings!!

 

[Boinky]

HEY...that's one of OUR carts! way cool that we are starting to see them show up different places now in the show ring!

I'm not sure i even like the idea of level at the withers for the head/neck.. a little up i think would be ok.. but i can see the need for the less UP neck that seems to be winning in the CP and SP classes (even though i don't think the horses winning in CP are the ones that TRULY should be winning.... ohh well).

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

(even though i don't think the horses winning in CP are the ones that TRULY should be winning.... ohh well).

EXACTLY!! My feelings EXACTLY! Many of the horses I see showing, and winning, have way too much "up" and not nearly enough "level" action.

Lucy

 

[alongman]

After judging the Western Pleasure and Country Pleasure classes - there are some major differences. In Western Pleasure we are looking for very relaxed, easy pacing horses with a lower head set (not checked up). In Country Pleasure, we see horses that are slightly more animated (although not as much as the Open Pleasure classes) and have a higher set. I agree with the comment that we shouldn't compare to the Quarter Horses - very very different! If you have specific questions, please send them to me directly as I won't get the chance to check the board until Monday

 

[R3]

I am not a 'fan' of any 'western pleasure' or 'stock type' driving classes. I don't honestly think a breed registry is doing itself any favors by adding this as another class. We already have FOUR types of driving classes! Park, Single, Country, and Roadster. Primarly, though there are three 'pleasure' type driving classes available. I think we need to sort out and ENFORCE the differences there are SUPPOSED to be between Single Pleasure and Country Pleasure, and if that was done, there wouldn't BE a need for a Western Pleasure class.

I believe the problem with the line between Country Pleasure and Single Pleasure being so blurred is becuase there is a trickle-down effect from the fact that there are so few true 'Park' horses. Everyone one wants to win, but there are only so many 'top' horses. So, if you have a high-stepping horse, but he's not the 'best' park horse out there, he only places in the middle of a class of ten all the time; what do you do? You put him in the Single Pleasure. Now, he's the highest stepping thing out there, so he wins. You're happy, but what just happened to the 'Single Pleasure' horses that had been up near the top of the class? Now that the 'middler' of the Park Horses have moved down to their division, the 'middlers' of the Single Pleasure division moved down to the Country Pleasure class. Now, what's happened to the Country Pleasure? Nothing SHOULD have happened, because if the guidelines for a 'true' Country Pleasure horse are strictly followed, the Single Pleasure horses SHOULD NOT BE WINNING! But, they are. That leaves no place for TRUE Country Pleasure horse to have a chance to win. So, now, the 'solution' is a Western Pleasure driving horse. This to me is not a solution, but just continues the trickle-down another layer.

I personally think they need to 'fix' the Country Pleasure judging. Yes, the 'fix' might end up looking more like a Western Pleasure class that it does now, but this is probably MORE (although not exactly) what Country Pleasure was originally intended to be. Before it was corrupted by the trickle-down from the Single Pleasure classes.

Maybe the Country Pleasure class needs to be reworked instead of adding a Western Pleasure, just rename the Country Pleasure to Hunter under Harness. I think that is REALLY the type of horse that should be winning in Country Pleasure now, not a Western Pleasure horse, and certainly not a trickle-down, checked up, high energy, no knee-action, Single Pleasure horse. I think part of the problem is that a lot of judges and competitors cannot really picture in their minds the differences between Country and Single Pleasure. But, I think that people could easily picture the difference between Hunter and Single.

And, for those who are saying we shouldn't be looking to the Quarter Horses for 'good' examples of what a Western Pleasure driving horse is supposed to look like, then what Breed should we look to? I don't think it would make any sense at all for the miniatures to create a Western Pleasure class, and then totally go make up our own idea of what 'right' looks like. We would again be a boat adrift, just as we let ourselves be with Country Pleasure. Country is a created class with no established 'look', so it is hard to define. If we went with Hunter, there is already a well established 'type' to look to. If we go with Western Pleasure, there are also well defined types out the (established by the Quarter Horse and Paint world, etc.). I don't think we need to be making up the 'type' as we go along.

Sorry to go off on a rant, I fell really strongly about this. But, going back to your original question, judging only from the one still photo, if I was a judge for a Western Pleasure class, I would feel that your horse is too high headed, not relaxed enough, and that your reins are too tight. And, although the other person who posted a picture didn't ask for my opinion, I hope they won't mind if I give it anyway, as maybe it will help to define what I think a Western Pleasure horse should look like. In the second photo, the horse's head is still to high for my taste, and his nose is sticking out more that I would like. He is more relaxed looking and is reaching forward nicely, but still not in my ideal frame. Of course, those are just my opinions, and they are worth nothing. What matters is what the judges think, and I have not been to a show to actually see one of these classes.

But, as a last word, I think adding a Western Pleasure driving division is not the best way to 'fix' the problem with the Country Pleasure class no longer being a place where a Country Pleasure horse can actually win, and that, I feel, is the reason for this division being created.

eEited to correct some bolding and underline mistakes, and to add clarity.

 

[Fred]

The true problem with the country pleasure classes and the pleasure classes is that MOST people don't know what a true pleasure horse or country pleasure horse is. A REALLY good horse can do all the types of driving and there are several out there. There really are two different types of country pleasure horses out there. One is the eastern type with a more ground covering pace and looks more flashy and the other is a more laid back slower horse. Personally I like to get where I'm going so I'll take the eastern type. Nothing wrong with either type its just a preference. The other thing is when you are showing it is the PRESENTATION of the horse and driver that really makes it happen, and if its a good horse and driver combination the presentation will be better. The western country pleasure horse [if you read the rulebook description] has no motion. They are flat kneed with no hock and pretty much level at the poll. You still need to have contact with the reins though even though you shouldn't be as flexed at the poll. When I see the words "single pleasure" I immediately know the person shows mostly AMHA. NOT ANYWHERE in the AMHR rulebook does it say "single pleasure" it states open pleasure.

: Flame away.

 

[Cara]

wow what a looker. :new_shocked:

 

[HGFarm]

OMG!! :new_shocked:

Ok, I have never seen a QH driving class, and hope I never do again. When the video first came on, I thought the horse was going to fall over. That is just about the ugliest form of driving I have ever seen and does NOT look balanced or athletic or even pretty or proper. Sort of like the hunters and all moving with their 'peanut roller' heads, and slow barely moving jog and their 'canter' that is a four beat half trot, half what ever..... I CANT STAND IT!!! I guess as long as your horse moves with it's head down around it's knees you can win at anything. A horse does NOT natuarally travel or carry itself this way!

I couldn't even watch the whole video- had to shut it off halfway through. I don't expect Hackney action from Minis, nor would I want to as they are 2 different breeds, but that is just ridiculous.

I do agree some with the trickle down effect and who ends up in what classes. This, to me, is up to the judges to make sure they are placing a class based on the rules and what is expected in it, and not place a 'drop out' from the class up above it.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

The true problem with the country pleasure classes and the pleasure classes is that MOST people don't know what a true pleasure horse or country pleasure horse is. There really are two different types of country pleasure horses out there. One is the eastern type with a more ground covering pace and looks more flashy and the other is a more laid back slower horse. Personally I like to get where I'm going so I'll take the eastern type. Nothing wrong with either type its just a preference.

I couldnt agree more hear often how CP horses are not winning where they should and that horses winning CP horses shouldnt be there but.. that just isnt true

 

[R3]

I show primarily AMHA, yes. However, I am an AMHR member, and I may show at their shows one of these days. But, for now I only show AMHA because their shows offer me more classes. I don't show in any of the 'pleasure' driving classes, either country pleasure or pleasure (not 'open' pleasure), or single pleasure, (whichever you prefer). I like to do things like hunter, jumper, and halter & driving obstacle. At AMHA shows, I am offered the option to do all of these classes in open and amatuer. I am not given that opportuninty at the R shows. I guess I missed the point, though...does the fact I show AMHA mean I can't have an opinion on Western Pleasure driving?

I have strong opinions on this, and it isn't intended to be AMHR bashing. The reason I am passionate, and felt compelled to voice my opinion, is because I am on the AMHA Performance Committee and the idea of a 'Stock Horse' driving class had been brought up on a teleconference. I missed that teleconference, so don't have all the details, I just heard from some follow-up emails that the subject had been raised. I sent an email out the Committee members stating basically the same thing I just put here on the Forum. So, please don't take my response on here as intending anything against AMHR. I don't like the idea, I don't care which registry is promoting it.

 

[Minimor]

I've said it before & I'll say it again--it's all a matter of perception. I just don't agree that the horses winning CP shouldn't be winning CP. I firmly believe that a CP horse should have some knee & hock flexion. The daisy cutter action that some believe is CP action is--to me--western pleasure action. If the horse has some flexion in knees & hocks to go with his nice long action, fine, but if it's that stiff legged, ground skimming trot that some minis do--no, that's not what I think CP should be. Good movement IMO means knee & hock flexion. CP horses just don't have quite as much flexion as an open pleasure horse, who in turn doesn't have quite as much as the park horse. And it's not just about the knee & hock flexion--there is the animation & brilliance aspect of it too.

Someone above mentioned "level" action. See, now to me when someone says "level" I think in terms of the forearm. A horse that trots level is flexing his knees enough that at a certain point in his stride, his forearm is level, as in parallel to the ground. In my mind, a CP will trot level or just below level--but never above level. An open pleasure horse will be level or just a bit above level, while a park horse needs to be up there, "popping above level" as we said with the Morgans. The knees come high enough that the forearm angles upward to the knee.

To be honest, there aren't very many "real" park horse Minis out there. Yet. They're getting closer than they were 6 years ago when I started in Minis, and I think we'll see more as more Shetlands get registered AMHR.

I have to say that right now as I see it there are horses that are being shown park, where I would call them open pleasure horses. And for sure there are open pleasure horses that I believe are better suited at country pleasure horses. And therefore, I see country pleasure horses that I believe would fit into the western pleasure driving class.

It's all a matter of perception!

But nowhere do I see the CP rules saying that horses should have NO knee flexion!