Culls, What do you do with them?

[Riverrose28]

Reason I ask is Hubby bought a supposed show colt a couple years back, advertised as show quality, got him home and he wouldn't acclimate. Had the vet out, found out he had a bridge over his left eye, we spent a fotune on meds and vet visits, finally got the bridge separated, but eye is still atophied and he is partially blind in that eye. That is the least of his problems, he is also brain comprimised, it takes several people just to get his feet trimmed and it took five of us to get him sadated for gelding. He rears up stricks out, and took forever for me to halter train. What do you do if you have, say, a mare that rejects her foals, a stallion that is not controllable, a foal that toes out or has cow hocks. I guess my question is how do you sell, give away or dispose of your culls? Are you honest with someone that is interested in buying, or do you give them away and tell the new owners of their faults? The gelding in question, I can't pass him on, I'm going to have the vet put him down, he is of no use to us and I'm afraid to pass him along, as he may hurt someone, even if I'm totally honest. It's a shame as some times I feel really sorry for him, as he is not at fault, just a victim of circumstance and a dishonest breeder, I think he may have been OK if placed in a home that had more time to spend with him and a one horse home at that, as he kicks and is aggresive with other horses, mares and geldings, and doesn't respect electric fencing. Hopefully I'm doing the right thing as I feel I can't pass this aggressive guy along, but was wondering what do you all do with your culls?

Edited to add, by toeing out or cow hocked, I don't mean just a little, I mean severe, or some other deformaty.

 

[Miniv]

Tough question, but I think it depends on each situation. With your poor colt with all the problems, I would probably do the same as you're planning. He's not safe for people and his quality of life is probably not happy.

The mare is a tough call because if she's a sound breeder with good conformation and pedigree, someone may buy her - even with her maternal flaw. It's also a situation which may change as she gets older. Mares are always difficult to sell as a pet only, because eventually someone will want to breed them, even when it's not what YOU intended or should occur.

As for a colt with leg issues (that didn't outgrow them), we've had it happen once and not too long ago......We were going to keep him as a pet because he was so loving, but because of his personality, somone else wanted him as well, as a pet. And yes, he was gelded. Colts like this also make great therapy animals.

No matter what, we are totally honest with the "faults" of the animals.....It's what we would want others to be.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

This is always a tough situation Terry. But I'll tell you what I do.
I'm EXTREMELY honest about it. Anyone who has bought from me knows I "undersell" the horses. And let's face it, if you breed, you WILL have "culls" for one reason or another. Heck, I've bought horses as "breeding" or "show quality" and they turned out to be none the sort. I bought a filly on a show contract that turned out god-awful! Great pet, NO WAY a show horse.
Whether it's a horse I've bought, and in the filly's case paid thousands for, or a horse I foaled out, if they are not breeding quality, for one reason or another, they are sold as pets. Pure and simple. I advertise them as pets and they are priced accordingly. In the case of the filly, I GAVE her away as a pet for nothing. I actually give away most of what I consider pet quality, especially in the last few years. In better times, I charged as much as $1000 for a pet, but that's not going to happen these days.
In the case of a horse I feel has some issue that makes me not comfortable with them going anywhere, I keep them or put them down. For instance, I used to have Wiz, a rescue gelding. He was a handful at times. Sometimes a scary handful. But I figured out ways to work with it. Back in 2009 when I had to move and also had to sell a large number of my horses, if it had come down to him needing to go, I would have just had him humanely euthanized and buried as I would not have been comfortable passing him on, even to someone totally informed who thought they could handle him. Just would not have been worth the potential danger to an unsuspecting child or adult. Fortunately I was able to take him with me. He passed suddenly this past fall and was in great shape and living a happy life right up intil that moment.
You have to do what your heart tells you. And as for the ones that just aren't the conformational quality needed for showing or breeding, well they have to go to pet only homes and be priced accordingly. Or kept as your own pet. I have those too!lol

 

[Matt73]

Awww...so sorry you have to go through something like this. It would depend on the level of deformity/behavioural issue. I've always said if I had a dwarf born on the farm it would be euthanised (and the stallion gelded and mare never bred again). Thankfully, that's never happened and, because I won't be breeding anymore, it never will. And if I had a horse that was vicious (where it was due to a brain abnormality or something, not a training issue etc.), I would do the same as you.

 

[Barnmother]

I had an Arabian stallion that I rescued even though I had to keep him in a boarding facility at full price. I did arrange for him to have full day turn out at an extra expense. He had shattered a front leg as a foal in a terrible accident his former owner/breeder had veterinary care done to save him because it was someone elses fault and she could make them pay the bills. He was never rideable, could never be shown as his front let was no longer any kind of straight and during the time he spent in a sling he hyperexteneded all of his hind leg muscles and tendons and walked like a duck with it's britches full.

He did have excellent bloodlines.

When we retired to Montana I knew he couldn't make the trip in the trailier comfortably. He was well into his twenties. I arranged for him to breed a couple of mares out in the pasture for the summer, they belonged to another breeder in the area. At the end of that time I had the local shipping company come and transport him to the equine hospital where he was humanely euthanized.

It was a tough decision so I know what you are going through but I felt it was truly the best thing to do for his quality of life.

He was never difficult to handle. He had a halter for daily use and another for breeding use. I just felt at his age and as crippled as he was I didn't want to rehome him at the risk or his health or him going back to a situation like I had rescued him from where he was starving to death because he owner hadn't the means or desire to feed a horse she felt was useless. I agonized over the decision and still wonder if I could of done something different. I have to be happy that I gave him 15 really good years, a life of ease with all his needs taken care of and a few girls along the way.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

I had a gelding that a young girl inquired on. He was NOT a child's Mini, not in the least, and I told them that. They ended up

coming out and did buy a nice horse from us. And we are still friends. The gelding was given away with full disclosure to someone who wanted a pasture companion.

I also was given an absolutely stunning Shetland filly, who was absolutely NUTS. THEY did not disclose the fact she was crazy, didn't take us long to find out. I kept her about ten months, then tried to sell her with full disclosure she was hard to handle and she scared me. Had a few inquires, but no sale. Then I was offered a trade for a MIni filly, but I just offered to give her to them. They kinda refused and wanted to trade, so we took her down and they loved her and her bloodlines (which are quite impressive!) I ended up with the total opposite- the filly is a pocket pal without a mean bone in her body!

I would have euthed the filly if no one had taken her. She was too much for me, but fortunately for her she found someone to handle her.

 

[targetsmom]

I have to say, i see nothing at all wrong with "pets" but I would prefer that they be called something else. How many big horses are really kept as "pets" but no one ever calls them that? They are trail horses, or pleasure horses, or kids horses, or 4-H projects... you get the idea. I think a lot of minis that don't have the quality to be bred would be perfect in these situations, especially if you add "driving horse".

I think a lot depends on what you are breeding for. We breed for pintos, so anything solid colored would be a "cull" for us. Could be World Champion quality but still a cull for us. Or an oversize "A" could be a cull. But I don't think that is what you are talking about. Sounds like what you really mean is an almost unsaleable horse - bad vices, horrible temperament, disfiguring or crippling injury, or major conformation fault. In the case of a dangerous animal, and perhaps even major injury, the responsible solution might be euthanasia. This is one reason why temperament is SO important in our breeding program. Any of our minis that we don't feel are suitable for breeding (we do have some of those) are already, or have the potential to be, first rate 4-H and driving horses. And I feel there will always be a market for them. Yes we would disclose their conformation flaws but I don't feel we would need to make a lot of excuses for them either. Good kid horses - of any size - should be worth their weight in gold!!

 

[Riverrose28]

I want to thank you all for your your insite. I too breed for dispositon, hubby says well this is a colt, and he's in a strange situation, he'll settle down, well his time to settle down has expired, I asked him not to buy this colt, because he was too high strung when I saw him, my Vet says he must have suffered from a birth injury, possable lack of oxigen. He has to be sadated just to trim his hooves, and for worming, I only have seconds to get it in his mouth. Gelding has helped some, but I can't in could conscious pass him on. I personally would never sell a horse without telling the buyer about any problems I've had with said horse. I'm totally honest. In fact I've lost sales because of an off bite, etc. but I can live with myself, you know what I mean. Anyway, Vet is coming back out on Thurs. and I'll revaluate and go on her recommendations. Thank you all for your advice.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

I've learned the hard way that you have to do what you feel is right while you have the chance (and the horse). Your being totally honest doesn't ensure that future owners of the horse will be the same. I have a folder with dozens of saved emails to and from people that have blatantly lied to me in an attempt to buy or sell a horse. For some reason, it seems to be the pet or special needs horses that attract the least appropriate homes - I'm assuming because they tend to be lower-priced. With so many horses out there right now, you'd think buyers would be happy to move on to something more suitable, but it seems once some people decide they want a horse, they will tell you whatever they think will get them that horse and rationalize it to themselves all the while.

In regards to non-breeding quality animals, I will never let a fertile horse leave the farm on just a non-breeding contract again. A few years ago our old vet of over 20 years decided he didn't want to do geldings anymore, so I sold two colts on gelding contracts. I know both have now been used for breeding, and since both carry our farm name, any subpar offspring they produce will serve as a very unpleasant reminder of my lack of judgment. You've done the right thing by gelding the colt in question, and I know how hard it is to consider putting down a healthy young horse, but if he truly has a severe mental defect then I have to wonder if any home could overcome that? Is he a happy or loving horse otherwise? If his defect means he will never have good quality of life anyway, then putting him down may be the kindest option.

 

[Minimor]

---- Well, luckily we haven’t had anything horrible born here in the way of conformation faults. Some didn’t come out as nice as we had hoped once they were grown up, but the only real defect we’ve had in one of our foals is a colt with a bad underbite. He was the first and only foal off of a young stallion we had; the mare has had a number of nice foals (different stallions) for us. I am inclined to think his defect came from his sire—that young stallion was immediately gelded. The mare hasn’t been bred again. The colt himself was gelded and is still here. He’s a nice horse otherwise but that bite is very sad—I feel bad for him (not that it hinders him in any way, he can eat just fine & is in good condition) but he doesn’t see any problem in it. He will stay here—he’s a cute guy and it’s not his fault that he is flawed; he likes himself just as he is! If we’d had other flawed foals—it wouldn’t matter if they’d had crooked legs, bad bite, poor hip or shoulder conformation or whatever fault—I suppose they would have stayed here, being pets and pasture puffs. We were never into breeding big time, it’s been strictly “for us” for fun with an occasional sale here & there—so we don’t have to push anyone out to make room for the next foal crop. I figure that if I raise them I’d better be prepared to keep them however they turn out. If there is something so wrong that I wouldn’t want to keep the horse, why would I expect someone else to take that horse and give it a good home forever? As for behaviour—I’ve never had much issue with behaviour. I’ve had some rather squirrelly horses—I had an old Morgan mare that could act as batty as anything, and we’ve got a wild old Mini mare here that wants nothing to do with people—both of them were/are complete nutbags to do anything with them—but we raised foals from them and each and every foal was as friendly and calm natured as anyone could want. The mares weren’t bad natured—they were simply products of their past environments, made what they were by poor handling or simply by no handling at all. With the Morgan mare, I would walk out in the pasture & the mare was GONE. Her young filly would ignore mama and come across the pasture to see me. A very hot pony stallion sired the most tractable filly. When we sell a horse we are completely honest about it—doesn’t matter if it is a “pet” or a show prospect or a breeding animal—I tell the prospective buyer everything good & bad about the horse. I’m not interested in shoving the horse off on the first person that comes along—I want the horse to go to someone who truly appreciates the horse—so I certainly don’t want someone being unhappy with that horse once they have it home. I may as well tell all, good & bad, so there are no surprises. I’ve canned a sale when I figured out that the buyer wasn’t being entirely honest—a mare being sold as a broodmare was actually intended to be a riding horse for a child, though the mare was totally unsuitable for such a purpose.

And yes, if there were something seriously wrong with a horse I would euthanize rather than give it away to someone. Sometimes that is simply the best choice for the horse.

 

[HGFarm]

Riverrose I stand behind you in your decision on this colt- he IS dangerous and not a happy boy. What a shame. I am so sorry. I would never want to rehome, give away, or sell a dangerous horse- I would never forgive myself if someone else at some point in that horse's life, was injured.

For a horse that is not safe, and never will be, or a horse that is crippled to the point that their life is NOT one of quality, I think euthanizing is a blessing in disguise for all those involved.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Absolutely you are right- kudos to you for living up to your responsibilities and not just passing the problem on as many would. When I was a teenager I bought a gelding that was a nasty piece of work- he tried to kill me a couple of times but I managed to put him in his place, so I was able to handle him. I wanted a mare and the only way to get one was to sell the gelding so I did this to a colleague, with a full resumé of all his faults- she had a riding school , he had come from one, so I knew he would work in one OK.

Long story short she decided I did not know what I was talking about , and sold him on as a first pony. He nearly killed the little boy and the father shot him on the spot.

OK, the pony was not hurt, (he was lucky) but the child was in hospital, and I shall never forget this.

If it is a conformational fault I will point it out and point out that this is why he/she is cheaper than a full show horse.

I have done this in the past only to end up being beaten in the ring a couple of years later by my little "reject" so you never can tell!

 

[Riverrose28]

Thank you all for the support and the responses. Hubby and I have made up our minds to stop making excuses for him and have come to the conclussion we have done everything we can for him, but can't possable let him be passed on to any one as it is not safe to do so, as I said before. Thanks again guys, you do make our decision somewhat easier, but still hard.

 

[mini horse mania]

It all depends on what we cull for...i will cull a mini under 30 inches..i will cull for deformities...severe deformities will be euthanized.if I cull for too small...i sell as a pet,with a no breed contract...slightly deformed, ( cow hock, not sq) I will give away to a nearby farm,or family...if something is ever born here,that I think would end up suffering in life,i would probably euthenize...it is not fair to the animal to suffer for my breeding mistake,or to the family getting attached,only to spend endless amts of money on a helpless case...the reason I say this is I have seen first hand of a family getting a dwarf,they spent a fortune,and she still passed..the children were so attched,and still mourn the loss....something I am not comfortable rehiming,such as extreme behavioral issues would have to be euthenized also..it only takes one kick,or one mishap to end someones life no matter the experience they have...i was attcked by a pmu mare I adopted...she pawed me,slammed me in the stall,and you could not touch her...she was euthanized instead of rehomed.

 

[vickie gee]

If I were a larger farm doing a lot of breeding I would do like most responders have said about being honest, selling as a pet, giving away, etc. But I am a small farm and since I am only a few years away from retirement and wanting to downsize to only a couple of horses it is my intention to keep my "cull" and a playmate/companion for her. Sunny is to me like a special needs child would be to a mom. My heart is just so filled with love for her and she does not have a clue that she is different. Besides, I likely will be making payments on her surgery right up until retirement date.

No doubt, the type of people that are willing to pay $$$ for a dwarf would want to take Sunny home and I could name my price. She is not a dwarf and is NFS. Her leg surgery stopped her growth and she looks "cute and somewhat freaky". My gorgeous horses can go to show homes, nice pet homes, and breeder homes but Sunny girl is staying with us to put sunshine in our days. Not your typical situation. I really love all my animals but I was watching Sunny fighting to take a step after watching my mom lose her battle with cancer. I welcomed Sunny into the world just 3 months after I lost my mom. Sunny's front legs were so messed up I really cannot put it into words. The surgery did not make her pretty by any means but she can now walk, run, and buck. Now that I have experienced the joy of normal, gorgeous, healthy foals I do realize she truly was a cull and would probably have to go with euthanization if I had another situation like Sunny's. But this is now and that was then. I really empathize with anyone having to make these difficult decisions but honestly when you get one that is "just not right in the head" you have to consider the options and do what you have to do. Chin up.

 

[bluerogue]

My culls were culls for a number of reasons... one had a seriously bad attitude, so I gelded him, and he became a sweetheart. His new owner was very happy with him, and he now belongs to her grandson, who fell in love with him, and basically just took him over. The others were culls because my program was changing and they didn't fit in it anymore. One mare had really tall babies, and as I want to stay with A sized minis, she wasn't working out for us. My former stallion just wasn't producing what I wanted, and he's now living with the lady we boarded with. She loves him, and he loves it there. That was a very difficult decision, but it was best for him. I sent my mom to talk to her about it, because I knew I wouldn't be able to tell her she could have him.

I haven't yet had a foal that was a cull for conformational (or mental) deformaties, or a dwarf. The ones I've sold were sold mostly because they were boys, and I couldn't keep them all. I still have the one filly I've bred so far. If I ever do have a dwarf, the parents will be removed from the gene pool at that time, and the future of the foal will be decided upon with a vet. It will be a difficult choice, but I also know what it's like to live in pain everyday, so I will make the tough decision if it is what is needed.

River Rose, you have done everything you possibly could for your gelding. I can't think of anything else you could have done for him. It is unfortunate about his difficulties. It *may* have been that his breeder did not know, and if they did know, they were wrong to have sold him to you as a stallion or show prospect. If it was me, I would have done everything that you have. And I would have come to the same conclusion. The gelding I mentioned first was destined for the same thing, if gelding didn't change his ways. He was dangerous as a stallion, and he would have hurt someone. It took 3 vets, 2 student vets, and me to get the catheter in him for his gelding surgery. He dislocated my wrist in the process, and the vets were amazed that this mini was giving them such problems (he also apparently had weird veins, as the vets said they were having trouble getting it to go in. His neck was very swollen for a few days afterwards, as they had to try multiple times on both sides). Luckily for him, gelding changed his views completely, and it saved his life.