Dead foals

[blueprintminis]

Have you ever had a mare deliver her foal, stand up and start to turn around to lick it and have the placenta plop out onto the bedding while it is still attached to the foal by the umbilicus? If so, then the mare had premature placental separation. This is not the norm in full sized horses. It usually takes 30-60 minutes or longer for full sized mares to pass the placenta. When the placenta comes out right away or within minutes of the delivery of the foal then the placenta was already separating from the wall of the uterus while the foal was being delivered. As the placenta separates, the oxygen supply is reduced. The more separation, the less oxygen getting to the foal. As the oxygen level in the foal declines the foal become "sedated". It is actually starting to die from lack of oxygen to its brain while it is being delivered. These are the foals that do not move when they hit the straw. That is why the birth sac does not break. For some reason, mini mares placentas tend to separate earlier than their larger counterparts. Interestingly, draft horse mares are the most likely to have retained placentas (their placentas don't want to separate from the uterine wall even after the foal is expelled). This tendency for early placental separation is the number one reason it is so important for someone to be present at delivery time to ensure the birth sac is pulled away from the foal's face as soon as the head is out of the mare. Yes, other factors can lead to an extra thick/tough birth sac, but a foal that has been deprived of oxygen for too long during the birth process won't be moving at all so it doesn't matter how thick or thin the birth sac is.

 

[Joanne]

I agree with blueprints minis.

We see a lot of miniatures where the placenta comes out minutes after the birth or right when they stand up. These foals may be too oxygen deprived to get out.

The whole birthing process may be so exhausting to these little ones that they are just to tired to fight their way out.

 

[pepperhill]

Thank you so much for all your ideas. I have done a lot of research on this and just wondered what the rest of you thought. I just recently had a local vet and a research specialist from the University brainstorming on this as well. The vet just called me back with their thoughts. They discussed a lengthy list of illnesses, environmental facters such as mold in the hay, or bacteria in the water etc. Their final thoughts on the issue were a combination of what two of you suggested.

They thought that there was a mineral deficiency- probably calcium, phosphorus, or magnesium. (They didn't mention iodine, but we might as well add that one into the mix) (way to go, Minimor!) A deficiency in these minerals causes the mare to foal slowly. That brings us to the second half of the problem. Minis have placentas that separate early. If the mare is already foaling slowly, and the placenta starts to separate early, by the time the new foal hits the ground, it is already dead, instead of just sedated. (You hit right on it Blueprintminis)

Either one of these issues can cause problems, but a combination of the two is deadly. It turns out that even if you are supplying mineral for your horses, it may not be the right kind. Make sure you don't skimp on the mineral you buy. Read the label carefully. The calciumhosphorus ratio needs to be 1.3 to 1. Have it free choice all the time.

It is really heartbreaking when this happens. I hope this info prevents this from happening to anyone out there!

Best wishes!

 

[MBhorses]

I came aross this topic.I think it is very helpful.We just lost our first foal because it didn't get out of the sac.I had foaling alarm on the mare and everything, but the alarm didn't go off so I was there.I was checking her every hour then when I went to check at 12 I found the filly.I have been so sick to my stomach beating myself up.My daughter and I were taking turns it makes us so sick.This was this mares five foal

She was a very pretty med hat filly. I love my minis like my children losing one is so hard

I try everything to make sure I am there and have foaling system and all.

 

[targetsmom]

So sorry for your loss Melissa. We lost two foals this way (in 2008 and 2011) and both times the placenta was delivered WITH the foal. I had heard that rhino, which is known to cause abortions, can also cause this to happen and we suspect that was the case for both of these losses. We had a foal born today, mare wearing alarm, I was out there feeding at the time, and I almost missed it. She foaled mostly standing up, never set the alarm off and if I hadn't seen her yearling son staring in her stall window I would have missed it. Mares can be VERY sneaky!! Also, this mare was nowhere near ready 14 hours before she foaled when milk pH was over 7.0 and baby was still not in position.

 

[Minimor]

In truth it is entirely normal for the placenta to arrive right after the foal-nearly all of mine, mini and Morgans--have been this way. it has nothing to do with whether or not the foal can get out of the sac--mine born this way have had no trouble breaking the sac themselves; they are neither weak nor oxygen deprived. I can name a number of breeders (big horse) who will tell you it is normal for a placenta to arrive right on the heels of the foal.

In any case, I'm very sorry for your loss Melissa

 

[rabbitsfizz]

If the placenta is the same thickness as a BH then why do most foals get born "normally" ie the bag breaks as the head comes through the passage and peels back over the shoulders as the foal is born?

I do not think it is that simple, not at all. I have had instances when I had the Arabs where people have found full sized foals in the bag, unable to get out. I have been there when a mare I had had her foal, standing up and the whole lot came at once, foal, placenta etc and the mare did not even look round. If I had not beaten the land speed record up the field and bitten into the bag to open it (UGH!!) the foal would have died- imagine attempting to punch your way out of a polythene bag with gloves on your hands and socks on your feet! Even the most active foal is unlikely to be able to do it. What tears the bag is the foal pushing against it with it's nose and feet, whilst the bag is firmly anchored to the placenta, by the umbilical, which is firmly anchored to the womb. If one of these links fails and you are not there to help the foal is doomed. This is why I never, ever hesitate to "interfere" better to interfere than have a dead foal, anytime.

I think, possibly, the placenta coming away with the foal, is more prevalent in Minis- I am not sure I ever had it happen with the Arabs, or the Welsh, always within a couple of hours, but not actually with the foal. Even within half an hour gives the placenta plenty of time to detach normally- it is these with the foal detachings that worry me most.

 

[Matt73]

Blueprintminis, both of my late mare's, Lexus, foals had placentas that slipped out as they were lying there; I had to break the cord myself. Both foals came fairly quickly (and that makes all the difference, im sure) and were very active (Levi came out whinnying lol). And both were up and nursing within 20 mins. I'm not saying you're not right (that's probably the case many times when the placenta comes right out after the foal), but I guess I was lucky.

 

[Joanne]

I am glad that this topic was brought up and revisited.

In the throws of birthing it is always important to check your electronic equiptment and make sure the batteries are fresh and working. We take off the halter at night and test it before putting it back on the mare. Mares that lay flat frequently while sleeping drain the batteries, and of course the pager batteries need to be new as well.

Having said that, a power outage (we had one during a birth this year) as well as mares not laying flat during foaling (such as standing up) will not set off the alarm.

Mare Stare has saved many of my foals by letting me know my mare was foaling in advance of my pager going off. These few minites advanced notice has allowed me to be there to reposition and help the foal out of the sac. I would highly recommend it to anyone foaling our horses.

 

[HGFarm]

Have not read all the posts but will pass on what my vet shared. The sac/afterbirth, etc.. did not 'downsize' with the Minis. It's the same consistancy of a big horse. When you have a 100 pound foal being pushed out of the back end of a mare- it has size and weight to help in breaking through the sac on it's own. Compare that with a tiny 20 lb foal of a Mini. Just not really the impact there to help break it- even when trying to raise it's head after birth. I have had sacs a couple of times that were so tough I could barely cut through them. The foal would NEVER have gotten out if I had not been there. Some have broken easily on their own, but were thinner sacs without being so dense.

I try to attend ALL my births to make sure this does not happen. In about 1996, my first mini foal suffocated in the sac because the mare foaled when I was not home during the day. I was not new to horses, but new to Minis and had no idea. I have never forgiven myself and have taken steps so hopefully that will never happen again.

 

[Kelsey]

I ALMOST always have to break the sac on the minis. I think it is a weight thing as well as the minis are exhausted and just lay there rather then get up.

 

[Tremor]

I think that this is one of the setbacks of breeding miniatures, the fact that we have a higher increase in dystocias and foals who aren't heavy enough to break the sac.

I just think that's sad. Is there the same problems in Shetlands? (I'm talking like, 40"+) I have never bred, owned, or foaled out a Shetland mare, so I am curious.

 

[Minimor]

Shetlands seem to be very good at foaling unassisted.

In actual fact though, my 36" mares, the foals have had no problems with thick sacs--they have, all but one, been gossamer thin. As the shoulders clear the mares pelvis the foal moves its head and the sac peels off the nose. I have TOUCHED the nose--just a fingertip touch--and the sac peeled away.

The one exception....the mare had a severe mineral deficiency. The sac was thick and the foal was weak. She did not live--even though I got the sac off her quickly. I do believe that thick sacs are an indication of some other issue...in cattle it is a well known fact that thick sacs are mineral related.

 

[Tab]

I have a theory. Perhaps the cell membrane that becomes the amniotic sac is the same thickness no matter what breed or size the horse. Perhaps it doesn't stretch/grow as far in minis because they are so small. Just another reason for being annoyingly diligent from day 300. Bad things still happen, but odds are so much better all around if you're there. The one delivery I did not attend (large pony foal) resulted in trauma and anguish down the road. So many things could have been different, starting with telling me the mare had been bred or exposed, but that is neither here nor there. My heart goes out to all of you who have done everything you could to be there and this has happened to you!

 

[happy appy]

On the foal that I just had born at 352 day, the sac was thick. I had to struggle to break it and was heading to the scissors when it finally broke open. I don't think that the foal would of made it out without help. In fact I had to help the mare because he was big and she was struggling to get past his head. He has a fine head too. I needed to make sure that I was pulling one leg in front of the other so that the shoulders would be on a diagonal to make the chest narrower to pass easier.

 

[Barnmother]

Is there any correlation to number of days gestation and the "thickness" or the sac? Or perhaps the amount of amniotic fluid and the sac thickness, for example the longer the gestation the less fluid therefore the sac begins to mummify making it more difficult to break.

Might be interesting to collect some data and do an "informal" study between owners. (Of course we'd have to have a pretty accurate record of conception so probably wouldn't work on pasture bred horses without some careful record keeping.) If that turns out to be the case then the increasing number of days in gestation the increasing attention that needs to be paid to a mare you are waiting on to foal up to and including a constant survelliance by someone 24/7.

My mini mare that foal in 2011 had a very thin sack, broke very easily although I peeled it back. The placenta arrived within 20 minutes after delivery and after the mare stood up. I don't remember any difference between it and any of my big horse foals that I delivered (Arabians, Saddlebreds and Thoroughbreds); in fact it might have been thinner.

 

[happy appy]

Sugar had a huge amount of water. She flooded the stall and into the next under the dividing wall. When the last one foals I will have an other one to compare it to. Cheerio is sitting at day 355 today.

 

[HGFarm]

I have not noticed any links as to how thick the sac will be. I have had the same mares, on the same diet... and it seems to vary from year to year.

 

[minie812]

I noticed this year has been horrible for lost foals and even the mares. I tend to think that the drought in our area has created poor hay and mineral deficient grasses. I have also noticed as everyone strives for the more refined miniatures that the mares do not seem to have the hips and longer bodies. Everyone wants that "refined-short body" and have bred to taller Shetland types. I wonder sometimes that we are creating our own foaling issues. Just a thought.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

If this theory about the sac were true then I should have had all this when I was breeding under 30" (real) Shetlands- I did not have it and I never had it, so I do not think it can be the answer. Most of my foals break the sac themselves- they are not born in it, they break it normally, as they come out of the mare-I have only ever had one foal born in the sac and that would not have got out alive if I had not actually been there. As I said I have heard of this in BH's as well, not just Minis- so again, not unique. I don't know what the answer is but it is not as simple as "the sac does not change in consistency as the size drops" we don't see Shetland foals (and we do have some tiny Shetlands) being born unable to get out of the bag. We need to look at other possibilities......