disclosing important info during a sale

[Frankie]

A friend of mine purchased a stallion about 4 months ago, he is 8 years old and I might add he is a very nice horse. But this boy is nasty. He is aggressive, strikes out at people and when they leave his area he continues to be mad and bites and kicks at the gate.

She is an experienced horse person, made sure she kept him on the same grain, same type of hay, he was use to being near other horses so she housed him that way as well. She has worked with him a lot and continues to do so. He has been checked twice by the vet and farrier to make sure nothing is wrong with him, all seems to be fine, but over the months his attitude has not changed.

He did act like this some when they picked him up, but she figured it was due to going on the trailer and the move itself.

She has questioned the owner and the owner doesn't have a clue. He acted up some in the past due to circumstances but other than that has always been fine.

What I think the problem is here is a differences here in opinions of what good and bad behavior mean to different people. And how much people know the horse as this farm was large and admittedly wasn't messed with on a regular basis. I also do not think all the right questions were asked when he was purchased.

She knows that a horses attitude can change with a move, different place and especially different handler, but I agree with her that it had to be a problem before and she is taking the blame here as she was not detailed enough in her questioning.

I know we have discussed this some before as far as what to disclose during a sale, but I think an aggressive horse, that should be told.

She reads here often, so hope she reads your responses and could too probably use some help with handling him. She has plenty of pasture, space, housing to do what ever needs done.

 

[Margaret]

Truly Frankie it sounds as though that stallion was not trained properly to respect people. 4 months is plenty of time to settle in. He is getting away with being aggressive.. I have recently sold one of my stallions at 3 years old, to someone out of state. She was not only new to minis, with 4 mares of her own, but she was also new to horses.. I agonized over whether or not I should sell him to her. Although he is a nice mannered, and well trained stallion, (non-agressive towards people) He can be a challenge around breeding time. (very vocal and adamate about breeding the mare) So I explained in detail all of what was involved,.. and at the end of my e-mail I added, "now, either I have scared you away,.. or you just got a good chuckle." ...Although I thought for sure I did scare her away, she ended up buying him a week later.. I could not have felt right selling him to her with out preparring her for "that" end of things. It sounds like your freinds stallion was never taught to respect people and is basically in an untrained state.. I had a rescue like that once, and he required quite a few halter lessons to make him not roll, on the lead rope, and lean into me. as well as attack me with pinned ears at feeding time. He finally trained up nice enough to sell after a few of months.. With all of the energy that your freinds stallion is putting into being aggressive, he sounds like a good candidate for lunging or round pen work... as well, as some basic halter work, until he learns to not be aggressive to people. and of course allways end her training on a "positive note" where he is being praised for something good he has done. (or at least something bad he has NOT done) With time, energy, and patience, he can come around.

 

[Bess Kelly]

I agree.....mean behaviour should be disclosed. BUT, most don't want to tell you and some don't know the difference. The activity you describe her is some that would be hard to ignore, however

So, doubt the seller "didn't know".

Training & handling is critical. As we all know, every animal has it's own personality, but we should not ignore danger in aggression. I have a stallion whose personality is quite bold (ok, you'd better be ready to hold on & take control) but he is NOT mean....never any biting or kicking, etc. Just full of himself and yes, one I do not handle on a leadline as frequently as others. My bad! Another is a pussy cat for me but, full of action when he is supposed to be. Yet another is quite timid with people; another is lots of action but extremely mannerly and easy to control/command......yeah, that many (!!) stallions.

Hormones make stallions one animal that it is pretty vital to "know your horse or know your seller!!"

 

[k9mini2]

Sorry to hear you friend has a bad one. I have only ever had 1 stallion that was a stinker and he was young. I did sell him, and it was long enough ago, I don't remember if I told the buyer about him or not. He wasn't mean, just a youngster and nippy and very onery. If I had kept him, he would have become a gelding.

I personally hate stallions who are agressive like that and would geld him really quick, no matter what pedigree, show record or how striking his looks might be. My personal primary criteria is that the minis have to be kind and gentle studs or mares. I will let it slide if they are aloof but if they are mean no way. Of course the other physcial traits are important but bad dispostion in any size horse is a big no no to me.

He sounds like he is trying to dominate her and she is probably going to have to do some pretty tough love to fix this. I would give him time to adjust, but a month sounds like enough time to me...maybe not. But I would think "would I like a pasture full of that attitude running around"? IF your friend is a gambler, she could try breeding a few mares and if he doesn't pass this on...well then its a question of living with a monster or trying to do corrective training.

I am so sorry she has to be faced with making a decision of this kind especially after investing money. I do think people should tell disposition as part of the selling. It is after all part of the package, not just the conformation and pedigree.

I hope she works something out maybe someone else can offer some ideas.

 

[Marty]

The first thing that comes to mind is that is probably one reason he was in the sale in the first place. I agree that he has had plenty of time to settle in and unfortunately for your friend, I feel that "what you see is what you got" at this point in time. I feel that he has not only been untrained/unhandled, but ill mannered and is mad at the world. A stallion with a disposition like this I would never want to breed to.

If I am selling a horse, I am going to disclose every single thing I can possibly think of about the horse. I feel it's my duty, morals and ethics.

But most people will not. Somewhere along the line there should be a "lemon law" like in buying a used car.

When buying a horse it's always Buyer Beware and boy I've had to learn that one the hard way myself. It's always not a cher full of bowlies.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

well i will say this. A horse can act very different at one farm to the next even once they settle in. Especially a stallion I am not saying this is the case but doesnt mean for sure they were lied to or had the truth withheld-

Many things can make a stallion act different including how the person is handling them - experienced or not everyone handles stallions differently and they tend to act different, if there are other stallions on the property and how close they are to eachother

I have seen mares that were the bottom of the pecking order come into a new herd and be kicking squealing brats and never change that they fight there way to the top and stay that way

it could be a million things

 

[Cathy_H]

......... And how much people know the horse as this farm was large and admittedly wasn't messed with on a regular basis.

Seller may or may not have fully known the extent of his bad behavior. Talking to previous buyers of that seller could help determine if the seller is honest & up front. Any negatives on prior sales would raise doubts in my mind. It would be obvious in my eyes that a stallion in that setting, acting up like that on their territory could only be a problem on unfamiliar territory.

I also do not think all the right questions were asked when he was purchased

. Unfortunately inexperienced buyers do not know all the right questions to ask. I once heard a breeder/seller say "if they don't ask, I don't tell." Since we don't know how much the buyer knew about horses etc, we can't determine if the buyer knew enough to truly assess the stallions behavior to know if he was a bad choice or not. A reputable & concerned seller WILL ask the right questions to determine IF that horse is compatible to that buyer. I have nit picked at some of our previous horses info that I have actually talked ourselves out of a sale. The same info disclosed to an experienced horse person commented, " That is not a concern at all" & they bought the horse.

We've seen & been told that some stallions from certain bloodlines are hard to handle etc but I feel most of the problem is with the breeder & lack of handling & training & environment such as the one above. Our two mini stallions that we have from two different bloodlines have had wonderful personalities & so have the colts that they have sired.

As for fixing the problem, see if the seller will take him back in on a trade, send the horse to a reputable & qualified trainer, resell him or try to alter his attitude by trial & error.

 

[Bess Kelly]

Here's a thought -- away from all the reasons & causes we list --

Have Bonnie to talk with him

Maybe he's like the squirrel who like to watch Lawrence Welk and just needs some understanding....maybe he's got issues that could be resolved with some changes and compromise. Worth a try.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

You know what?? Everyone is being really polite here but there is only so much about which you can be ignorant!!! It is possible the stallion has turned, overnight, into Horsezilla, I do not honestly believe it is possible the previous owners would not have noticed if he had been this way with them. I had a very badly behaved colt brought to me for re-schooling. This I did and sold him on for hos owners, perfectly behaved. Standing up and saluting and asking "How high?" when you said "jump"

A year later I asked to borrow him off his new owner as I had a couple of mares I needed to breed to him. She was more than happy (for an agreed fee) I went and picked him up and got him home- he was right back to square one and worse- I took him straight back. She denied all knowledge of any bad behaviour!! Now this is a horse I had to NAIL into his stall!!! I also heard from a couple of friends who had visited that she would not go into his field as he bit her- he had never shown any aggressive behaviour with me, I would have suggested his being gelded if he had, I will not use an aggressive stallion. Now i know more about the situation, she is well aware of his behaviour- she cannot sell him because of it. He is getting worse as he cannot now be left with mares. Your friend needs to stop talking to the previous owners and start talking to the previous owners farm help or neighbours

 

[Margaret]

Lisa has brought up a good point to consider. Training methods vary from stable to stable.. what may work for one horse may not work for another.. The stallion I sold was well trained when I gave him to a "supposed experienced trainer" to "polish him up",on a few things, over a year ago... I was shocked when I visited him, at their farm, a few days later to find out that they were telling me that he reared and struck out at them, several times, when they approched him. Well, I couldnt believe my ears (as he had never done this to me) so I asked to see him, and they took me over to where he had been tied for 3 days to a tree.. I knew immediatly that these people did not understand this horse, and took him home. Their theory was that "he needed to experience discipline", but their way of teaching it "brought out the worst in him".. .Once he was home where I understood him, he was fine again and never reared on me once. Just another point to consider.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

and one thing to remember is a stallion IMO is vry different to work with then any other horse in that if they do something wrong and you dont discipline them even once you have lost some of there respect yet if you over discipline them then again you lose there resepet either way you are setting yourself up for a challenge one way or another the next time you handle the horse. Granted this to me anyway i have found is more "obvious" with large horses then minis but really can apply to most mature stallions

There is a very fine line there and that line is very different with all horses that has just been my experience

 

[Jean_B]

There could be a whole bundle of reasons for this boy's behavior. It IS possible that he didn't behave this way for the previous owner.

Remember, it is still breeding season. His hormones could be running amuck.

His stalling situation could be quite different. Was he allowed to socialize with others previously and is now totally segretated (in which case he is lonely and peed-off)? Is his paddock next to mares in heat? Is his paddock much smaller than previously and cannot burn off his energy?

The first time he did this for the new owner- was he immediately and aggressively reprimanded? Or did she let is slide? If that's the case, he has learned he can get away with it.

 

[ChrystalPaths]

I probably give more info than wanted but I do try to be deadly honest. A forum friend is coming to my rescue tomorrow and will be the new owner of Diminutives StarSpangled CalicoRose. Many of you know she has been battling eye troubles. Just got the results of the cultures sent to Cornell & Texas and it comes down to allergic conjunctivitis. Exactly what I thought way back on 7/6. So, this person knows everything and I literally begged her to come get her, pay when you can I don't care cause I am just not able to hold her to medicate what with getting hurt last week again.

My rescue heroine will also be taking my bad boy to see if he has manners he can learn. We figured that he thinks of me as one of his mares and he has no respect for females, thus my getting hurt, my mares getting injured. Everybody is fine now but my back upper and lower are very hurt.

I'll fill you in on the details of this wonderful lady. She'll also be taking my Keesha to have a romantic interlude with a very elegant older gentleman and hopefully get in foal AND she'll sell my Casey for me. That leaves me 3 mares and 1 baby filly. Gonna be very quiet in the hollow but hopefully I will get as better as I can.

Honesty is the best policy for sure even if it's not so good.

 

[Tabitha]

I bought a stallion as a 2 year old; he was quite badly behaved when I got him. Sure, the previous owner would have known about this...if she'd ever done anything with him. She didn't handle him at all because he was a handful & she wasn't a real well person. I believe her husband beat the horse up once in awhile for getting too pushy, but otherwise the horse was just there. Did this lady know what the horse was really like? No. She knew he was lively & pushy, but that was the extent of it.

Just because a stallion is hard to handle doesn't mean that he is mean or has a bad disposition. In my horse's case, he has a lot of attitude--because of his lack of early handling and because he is full of himself & has a lot of energy, he had no manners (not even bad manners, he simply had no manners at all). He did learn his manners here but he'd never be a horse for a novice handler, and if he were owned by someone who was afraid of him, for sure he'd figure that out & take advantage of it. I've got foals off this fellow; they have wonderful dispositions, but they do also have attitude & spunk--and overall a lot more personality than some foals I have off of other stallions.

I once sent a two year old full size stallion out to a trainer for harness training. That colt was the nicest, quietest horse, but after a month at the trainers, the trainer still wasn't able to do a thing with him. So, I went and picked the horse up. I found out later from a mutual friend that this trainer was telling everyone how mean this horse was--he'd bite & charge & just couldn't be disciplined. Trainer was afraid to go into the stall with him. Huh. That horse had never once tried to bite or charge me or anyone else here. When we picked the horse up my daughter walked into his stall, snapped the rope on & led him to the trailer, no problem whatsover. First time we worked the horse here at home he snaked his head at me & meant to bite. I popped him one & he never ever tried that again. It was as if he said "oh ya, I can't do that anymore with these people". He wasn't at all mean, he was just smart enough to know who did or didn't deserve his respect, and he behaved accordingly. We were driving him 2 weeks after we got him home, and the day of our 2nd drive a friend of the trainer's stopped in & got to watch us work the horse. She stood there with her mouth open, because she couldn't believe this was the same horse she'd seen at the trainers'. So yes, sometimes it is not the horse at all, it's the people handling him that make a difference.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

With respect Tabitha - there is an awful lot of difference between a two year old colt and an eight year old Stallion. One is a bit like a teenage boy, unruly and prone to high jinks the other - well, I have no wish to turn this into a "male bashing" so let us just say ways once set are harder to change- either way!!!

 

[Tabitha]

Oh for sure there's a difference between a 2 year old and an 8 year old, but if my little boy here had stayed with his previous owner until he was 5 or 6 or 8 that owner would still have been as clued out about his behavior as she was 2 1/2 years ago. He wouldn't have been any worse behaved, but it might have taken a little longer for him to learn his manners here.

My only point was that the seller in the post here didn't necessarily know about this horse's bad behavior...well, okay, two points....the other being that it is possible that the horse behaved differently at his old home than he does now at his new home. It very much depends on the knowledge/ability/experience of the handler.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

well I just had to say I dont know the buyer or the seller of course.. but I just find it interesting that it is so easy to jump to the conclusion that somehow the seller was dishonest (maybe they were maybe they werent guess only they really know) but i dunno just an observation i guess

 

[bevann]

Several years ago I bought a herd of 15 from an estate.1 of the stallions had never been disciplined and was a very bad boy.He was OBNOXIOUS!!!He would bite kick and run over you.I worked on him and taught him a few manners, but he was not the type I like to deal with.I bred 1 mare to him and still have his daughter.A buyer came&really wanted him.I told them about his behavior and wrote on the sales contract HORSE CAN BE ILL TEMPERED AT TIMES. He was an angel for them and they loved him.I just felt that I had to disclose what I knew.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have had only one Mini stallion that came into the "thug" category. I gelded him, end of story. He went back to being an angel- sometimes stallions can be "thuggish" at certain times of year- especially when they get one/ no mares- they get frustrated. I just fail to see how anyone could honestly not notice this sort of behaviour. I certainly would not want to breed from a stallion that behaved really badly- so I would not expect anyone else to, hence the gelding

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I believe every horse will act differently in different situations, plus as you mentioned Carolyn, acceptable behavior, a person's ability and expectations, etc., are vastly different. You had also mentioned this was a larger breeding facility - horses will act very different in large groups and individually or a smaller group.

A mare of ours that I bought and was told she had an 'attitude' - well that it putting it mildly! Haltering is not the easiest - a catch pen is required, but trimming, deworming, vaccinations, foaling season and anything else - well you need to have armor on! We tend to plan the time in advance to deal with her! So did the orginal breeder/seller mislead me - maybe! I was new at the time and attitude didn't fully describe this mare.

Here she is one of our favorites (seen on the Forum in our banner ads!!! -

I've had her six years and she's a handfull to deal with, but she produces great foals that don't have her personality and I do love this mare, even when I'm thinking very unkind thoughts about her! (I just had Bonnie Fogg do a reading and she called alot of her attitude and gave us some wonderful advise to try on her, so would highly recommend having Bonnie help your friend!).

Horses that I think have 'issues', I wouldn't sell to anyone without full disclosure, as I don't want a buyer to get hurt nor the horse! It can be hard to call though, as some horses act differently with other people. I've had horses leave here that I did think were difficult (for various reasons), and the new owners say they're nothing like that at all in their new homes.