Dope 'Em

[LaVern]

I made an earlier response to the hot post about using a drugs in calming our miniatures in order to handle them safely. I said something to the effect that we do it with a lot patience, but have had a couple horses that we never could bring around, so we put them down. Well, I guess the word is out that we don't drug them we kill them.

I was visiting a good friend this morning and we laughed so hard at that one. But, basically that is what I did with my vets approval. And now I am feeling bad and thinking we should have tried one more summer. We kept her stalled in and out of the barn for three summers and tried almost every day to work with her.

So my question is this.-- Do you guys think I did the wrong thing? I mean do you agree or disagree with me that for what ever reason there are horses that are never going to fit in with humans and that there really is no other option?

I am not talking about just a high stung horse, but one that was either born that way or was mishandled and got to the point that it was the only thing to.

The one horse in particular was not just any horse, but the daughter of my best mare. Her sire's other offspring were a little more difficult, but all came around with kindness and patience. She never did, after three summers of trying. I couldn't in good conscience sell her to anyone, although I had offers, She simple wanted to kill any person she happened to see.

I am rethinking this dope thing though. My shins are black and blue.

Does anyone know if this is a kind of drug that would show up at drug testing at a show?

Renee LaBarre

701.345.8273

[email protected]

luckyhart.com

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

uhm, i dont exactly know what your asking here, but if your stallion consistantly sires agressive horses that need time to come around are you sure its wise to continue breeding him?

 

[LaVern]

Molly's Run. Like I said all the other siblings turned out fine with patience, but I was not satisfied with other criteria, so only used him for a short time. We were looking for a cross for our Rowbucks and he was not it. It took many years and many stallions to find the right cross.

 

[LaVern]

Diane, I think you are right about the farm thing and that every person and every animal having to pull their own weight, I think we as farmers and ranchers look more at the whole than at the individual. You are right we eat our pets. I wonder if I could eat a horse if I got hungry enough?

 

[ohmt]

I think what you did was responsible. If you didn't feel the horses were safe around people then it's the responsible thing to do. Of course i'm not advocating putting down horses because they're hard to handle. We've never had to because they've always come around with time (though we have had some pasture born and raised-no human contact mares that were very difficult. Big athletic pony mares. My grandparents never let me go near them) but if I ever worked with a horse that never stopped wanting to hurt me or others after years of work, I think the responsible thing would be to put him/ her down.

Now that's just my opinion. I'm sure i'll get flamed-good thing I have tough skin.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

It's hard to say you didn't consider all your options if you worked with the horse for three years, but even so I have a hard time stomaching the idea of putting down a perfectly healthy mini. I'd like to believe they don't pose the same threat as a wild full-sized horse, but that's probably because I've never encountered one that actually wanted to kill me (beat me up a little yes, but kill me no). Now having said that, it's easy to separate my personal feelings and see your point. After all, if you raised dogs instead of minis and lived in town and one of your dogs bit a child you'd likely have to put it down, even if it was provoked. So I'd say from that perspective you actually made a very responsible decision, especially knowing you could have easily passed the problem off on someone else and made a profit in doing so.

 

[Jill]

I do think there are situations where it may be the best thing to put a horse, or any other "companion" type animal down due to its inability to be safely handled. I've never met a mini I would put into that category, but I am sure not saying they do not exist. I have known one big horse I felt should have been put down (vet did, too). He hurt a couple people that I know and was dangerous to handle on the ground let alone under saddle. Not just high strung at all, but sick in the head. It happens sometimes with animals and I don't think it can always be fixed (nor that it can honestly be worth the safety risk to try and push it)... It would be hard for me to make that kind of choice and maybe would find a way to put up with a horrific mini, but it would be a personal choice and not even one I'd hold out as the best depending on the circumstances.

Anyone have any "off shoot" thoughts on this issue, and how we do really prize a hotter (though not crazy) horse when it comes to showing in halter? Just sort of something that crossed my mind... My "hot" horses turn into marshmallows out of the ring, but I don't know if that's a always the case with some of the real wound up show boats!

 

[sedeh]

I thing there's a big difference between a horse that's hard to handle and one that's dangerous to handle. I respect that Lavern is an experienced horsewoman and knows the difference. As far as drugging them....I don't think that would have made a difference with a dangerous horse, and the drug they're talking about would not be useful to show them...I think they're pretty sedated!

I have a yearling filly that I'm having a difficult time with right now. She has a very strong fight or flight response and doesn't like to be held/contained etc. I've spent more time working with her than any other baby I've ever had and she's going backwards instead of forwards....but there's not a mean bone in her body. So I'll still keep on working with her..in fact a chiropractic adjustment is the next step for her. She had a rough birth and we think her neck/poll was affected. But I think we'll have to sedate her to do it!

 

[LaVern]

Just wanted to ad, that I think that a loco little horse or pony ,presents more of a threat than a loco big horse, simply because they look so little and adorable. Then unknowing people buy them for their children at the last dumping ground, the local sales barn, thinking they couldn't hurt a kid. (They probably are doped up and led through)

 

[ohmt]

Another thing to add-I watched a tv show yesterday about a couple with 2 dogs that killed a woman in their apartment building. Despite one of the owners putting herself on top of the woman to keep the dog from biting her, she was charged with second degree murder because it was decided that she KNEW the dogs were a danger and didn't have them put down so therefore she had a weapon that she knew could/would kill and did nothing about it. There was more to the story, but those were the basics. What if you had a horse that you knew was a danger to someone and did nothing about it and then what if someone came over and the horse hurt them? What if you knew the horse was a danger and you sold it and it hurt someone?

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

I leave to each their own, I would not presume to know more about a situation than the person who went through it. Whether some one would have made a different decision in no way makes your choice wrong.

I would like to change the paradigm of your thought process a little.

If your horse was difficult to deal with/dangerous because it had a disease. Would you feel compelled to treat the disease? Mental health issues in humans (and rightfully so) are thought of now as diseases with organic fixes. Why wouldn't animals be the same way? Why is it ok for humans to take antidepressants for a disease but not ok for animals to take mood altering drugs?

I do not think it is reasonable to cheat in the show ring, but I will always advocate for the animal if I think treatments may help. But, I have put to sleep dangerous animals of many species.

Dr Taylor

 

[Crabby-Chicken]

You know they horse. You are being honest with us on what you had to do. It can happen to anyone. And yes issues in the brain can happen to any species. If you felt that she was not happy, and could actually harm someone after taking that much time with her. I probably would have done the same thing. Really tough decision to deal with. I am sorry.

 

[MindyLee]

I agree with many above as well here. If you felt that the horse was dangerous and you knew it could hurt someone or itself, and all has been done to try and get the horse to come around and it did'nt. Well I would have done the same thing for everyones safty.

Like another person above said, If you knew it was dangerous and did nothing about it and someone got seriously hurt, you would be held acountable for it. Also and this is just a example BUT would if something had happen to you where you for some reason passed away, and your family had to sell your horses. They might not fully understand or realize that the horse was dangerous and sold it to someone with small children and it hurt or killed them.

I think you did right by taking the responsility of being the owner and did what was best for everyone involved! You are not a horse killer but a responsible horse owner!

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Well, I don't usually respond to this type of thread (MY flame suit isn't always available lol) but here's my thoughts anyway for what they are worth. I promised myself long ago that I would take responsibility for any animal that came into my ownership and make the tough decisions when I felt it was necessary. When I was about 13 (several life times ago

) my brother purchased a gorgeous palomino gelding at an auction. We kept that horse for a few years but could never trust him. If he was stalled we had to really watch when we went in with him or he would body slam us into the wall, when we rode him it was not a good idea to let your guard down and heaven help you if you fell (or were bucked) off because he'd do his best to stomp you where you lay. Not a day went by that he didn't try in some way to hurt his handler no matter who that was. My brother finally decided he didn't want the horse badly enough to put his life on the line and hauled him to an auction (yup, he was determined to get a return on his investment

. He did inform the auctioneer that the horse should not be sold to anyone without telling the buyers he was dangerous and definitely no children should come in contact with him. Of course the horse was sold to a man who's little girl thought he was soooo pretty. I was too young to have any say at the time time but I was horrified. So would I have put the horse down... you bet, if I felt it was dangerous I would have, and grieved for what should have been, but I would have done what I felt was needed. I will NOT be responsible for passing on what I know to be a danger to some one else. IMO, with the facts you presented, you made a reasonable and responsible choice.

 

[CASINO]

I understand your decision Renee, and agree with what you did.

I purchased a "show" quality dog that I had put down at age two after dealing with a "rage" issue for over a year. When he finally bit me after: talking to the breeder, talking to the vet, hiring a trainer,taking him to an animal communicator,talking to another breeder (different breed) with 40 years experience that supported my decision..........

I was ostracized by the breed club - they thought I should have surrendered him to "rescue". My thought was - they don't know what they would be getting - he could be happy and waggy and turn on you in an instant - which is what he did to me - repeatedly.

This is not an easy decision - I'm sure you cried for days - I know I did.

 

[LaVern]

Yah, Know you got a point there Doc. I wake up every morning and have to have my caffeine-nicotine fix before anyone dares come near me. If I get a head ache I pop a Tylenol. Half the people I know are on some kind of medications for some head thing. Remember when so many women were on this happy stuff. I can't remember what the name was, but they used to call it "mothers little helper". I remember our people doctor telling me, that it would help my fear of driving in the mountains. He said that Hart could drive right off a cliff and I wouldn't care.

But I don't know how you would find out what was wrong in the head of a horse. Does them being calm mean they are happy?

 

[Jean_B]

I've known Lavern for MANY years, have been to her place MANY times, and know how much she treasures each and every horse, cow, dog (those of you who have been there will remember old Chief who was much loved despite the fact that he was hairless due to illness, kept inside and had the most wicked venison far--!!). I too have been raised on a farm where we ate our pets (old Holstein cows or bull calves, etc). Those of you who have seen Whitey and what a bear she was, you know how hard Lavern works to keep a horse despite putting herself at risk for over 25 years with that darn old girl. Thankfully her daughters were total sweeties. So when she says a horse was incorrigible...it TRULY was.

Who knows what causes a horse (or any normally domestic animal) to be extremely aggressive and dangerous. In my case, years ago I had purchased a GORGEOUS stallion, that for a couple of days was nice as pie. Then he started viciously attacking. Turns out a previous owner had a mentally unbalanced child that tormented him. This stallion went through 4 owners before he came to me...each more terrified of him than the earlier one- I found out later on he actually bit off one owner's finger. I tried and tried and tried to bring him around with kindness for almost 2 years. He was not timid. Easy to catch, and then he would try to kill you. On hind-site, I should have put a bullet in his brain....but a percheron breeder - fully aware of his disposition - WANTED him as a teaser...and I sold him. Far as I know he's still there.

Life is too short to end up in a wheelchair because of a vicious animal.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

-I have a yearling filly that I'm having a difficult time with right now. She has a very strong fight or flight response and doesn't like to be held/contained etc. I've spent more time working with her than any other baby I've ever had and she's going backwards instead of forwards....but there's not a mean bone in her body. So I'll still keep on working with her..in fact a chiropractic adjustment is the next step for her. She had a rough birth and we think her neck/poll was affected. But I think we'll have to sedate her to do it!

I read a true story in a book about a filly that was exactly this same way. To the point they WERE going to put her down- she didn't want touched, didn't lead, fought everything. Had a chiro adjust her- every bone in her spine and neck was out! At the end the chiro took her tail and "cracked" her like a whip. Filly sighed and never looked back and became the sweetest horse on the farm. So it IS possible! (That filly had a difficult birth, too)

 

[LAminiatures]

I think you made the right decision. You could have dropped the horse off at an auction only for the horse or someone to get hurt.

I bought a riding horse 10 years ago. After he was settled in for a few weeks I walked out into his pasture to give him a carrot and say hello and he ran me over breaking both of my arms. I did some research and found he had hurt a few people including a small child over the years. I made the decision to put him down 2 weeks after the accident.

It's a hard decision to make.

 

[Songcatcher]

I can't answer if you did the wrong thing or the right thing. Only you knew the situation. They say hindsight is 20/20. Not always. Sometimes we wonder forever if we did the right thing or not. Would drugs have helped? Maybe and maybe not, but with the length of time you worked with that horse, I think drugs would have been at best only a temporary solution, not a long range solution.

I too grew up on a farm with the understanding that you can't spend $1,000 on something worth only $100.

On a side note (and this is in no way a reflection on your decision), of the thousands of Minis I have looked at (at many farms AND auctions), I have only encountered one that I felt was truly evil. He was a yearling or two year old, I can't remember right now. He was in an auction pen by himself. Not being threatened by anyone or anything. He was looking for something to kill. Screaming continually. He ripped the tag off of the stall door and shook it like a dog shaking a snake. He would pick up the feed pan in his teeth and throw it up in the air and then stomp on it. He did not cower away from anyone passing by, he would lunge at them and try to attack. I don't remember seeing him go through the ring. Not sure if I left before he sold or what, but in my opinion, he was definitely a candidate for being put down. I have never seen one like him before, and hope I never do again.