Driving americam style

[Ouburgia]

Hi all,

a message from a European reader

I drive with my 14 years old mare by the European (dutch?) way. A few weeks ago she became movement champion on a show by the dutch miniature studbook. There were also some AMHA horses wich shown their driving skills.

This raised some questions for me..

Why are american horses shown with a check and martingale? I was told it ought to be safer, and that it's in the rules.. Ok, fair enough, but why?

If a horse is jumpy he is gonna go, check or no check, Liverpool or no liverpool.

I can see the use of "helping reins" in training, but isn't the point of showing to show what you have achived with your horse? Shouldn't the horse walk on hir own legs? in stead of on helping reins (wich are often used the wrong way, like the check puts the head up, and the martingale put's it down again)

I can ride with helping reins, I can ride whitout helping reins, I can ride with a shank, or a snaffle, It makes no difference.

And that is not because I'm a fantastic driver. Ok my horse is a very good girl, but I'm sure she isn't the only one...

 

[keely2682]

would love to see pictures

 

[mondak]

WOOOOHOOOO

 

[Keri]

Every country is taught/learned in different ways on how they train their horses. I do believe that using a martingale with an overcheck is confusing for the horse. But I watch a couple videos on youtube from other countries and you guys show different than us. So we could ask the question as to why you guys don't use what we use and why don't you train like we do??? Also, your horses are a bit different style than what is winning here. JMO though.

 

[JourneysEnd]

We don't all use martingales, but checks are required at AMHA & AMHR shows.

Side checks can be adjusted to where they don't interfer with the horse's mouth.

We don't use either at our ADT/CDE type events.

I have to say with all the half trained horses I've seen in the show ring, checks may be an okay idea. At least the horse can't plough the sand with their nose and triip.

A lot of people here use the above (checks & martingales) to achieve a false collection.

A lot of judges here place horses with false collection which has made it more popular to do this.

I will say we are growing in our ablility to train and handle the minis at cart.

Congratulations on your championship with your horse.

 

[Margo_C-T]

As far as how Miniature horses are shown in BREED ring driving over here, I believe the parameters were 'copied' very directly from the 'fine harness' breed show rings, such as Hackney, Saddlebred, and even Shetland....where the emphasis is mostly on HIGH action, a very 'upheaded' animal(bred and 'conformed' that way, for generations), and 'minimal' harness(ostensibly, to 'see' the horse and its extreme action all the better, as it goes round and round in a flat ring. A 'FANCY' appearance is considered valuable; therefore, the (already BUILT to be) upheaded, horse that 'breaks' level or even above was thought of as the 'epitomy' of a driving horse, and the combo of overcheck and running martingale is a way of 'creating', and 'maintaining' major components of that 'look' in the show ring without having to wait the time it takes to train to it.

IMO, there is NO 'reason' except the above for the requirements of checks in the miniature horse breed show ring. Running martingales are OPTIONAL in AMHA(I am not familiar w/ the AMHR rules, but strongly suspect they are the same?)-in the 'best' tradition of copying what 'everyone else does', you see running martingales almost universally used in the AMHA rail driving classes, even when the driver has no idea WHY they are using one.....but they are NOT required equipment. I strongly believe that checks should NOT be 'required' by the rulebook, either; they should CLEARLY BE NOTED to be optional.

The driving horse show ring existed overseas far earlier than over here, I'm pretty certain. I'm betting they are following a far lengthier tradition than are we over on this side of the Atlantic.

Margo

 

[Ouburgia]

@Keri, I don't think you have to ask why we ride different than you. We show the horse as he is, and don't need all kind of helpingreins to get them where they should walk. That's IMO the whole point of showing, to let people see what you have achived in youre home training and/or breeding.

Driving is driving, no matter if you drive an amha, hackney, shetland or warmblood, the principle is still the same

@JourneysEnd, I know that not everybody uses martingales, but I just don't see the point of using them at all (combined with a check) And about half trained horses: What's a half trained horse doing in the showring anyway? But then again, if their gonna go, their gonna go, check or no check.

@Margo_C-T, I see what you meen, it's all about copying. The world champ (for example) does it, so I must do it to. Can't we think for ourselves anymore?

Again: I have no problems with helping reins in training, I use them also at double lunging. Fact is I still don't see the point of using helpingreins of any kind in the showing ring.

Checks are sometimes so high placed it's impossible for the horse to move from the hind quarters and over the back. The just put the back out (correct term?) and dive on the front which is NOT a proper way of driving.

Pic:

 

[Boinky]

i grew up in a very heavy dressage background so i am not all for the checks and martingales. I have no problems with martingales if they are truly needed though. I always train all my horses without a check get them carrying themselves ect then if i show in a breed show i'll put a check on set where they would naturally hold their head when driving. I've also fond 90% of my horses do not NEED a martingale...therefore i rarely use one.. WHY if they dont' need it.?? I was recently told by a very well known trainer that i needed to put one on one of my horses just for "looks" in the show ring even though he naturally carried his head on the vertical and soft. Sorry but if a martingale is the difference between winning or loosing i and my horse doesn't need it... I guess i'll skip it and hope that isnt' the deciding factor! I"m hoping maybe my horses will stand out BECAUSE they are different and BECAUSE they can hold their head/neck in the same frame these other ones with the gadgets forcing them. i HATE fads and wish people wouldn't automatically assume you aren't going to win if you don't do what so and so did to win!

I'm not sure the true reason for having to have a check but the martingale is mostly for looks in most cases OR is used as an artificial aid to achieve fast head setting results and false collection. Sure it looks good to have that horses head up and cranked in but i bet a huge percentages if those gadgets were taken off would not be able to maintain the head set (which it certainly didnt' already have collection with to begin with).

 

[Ouburgia]

I understand what you say Boinky, everything is it seems about looks, and the wellfair of the horse comes second place.

I knew a picture of een champion driving mini (don't ask me wich one) everyone was gaving a lot of credit to the owner/trainer (don't know) but in fact the horse was pulling on the bit and the lines from the chest to the cart (don't know the term, sorry) were hanging lose!

If I have to show that way, I'd rather not show at all....

 

[Ouburgia]

WOOOOHOOOO

I'm affraid you can put your popcorn away again... Sadly it was a very short discussion..

Wonder why...

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Every country is taught/learned in different ways on how they train their horses. I do believe that using a martingale with an over check is confusing for the horse. But I watch a couple videos on youtube from other countries and you guys show different than us. So we could ask the question as to why you guys don't use what we use and why don't you train like we do??? Also, your horses are a bit different style than what is winning here. JMO though.

Not quite true.

America uses check reins and martingales.

The rest of the world???

Not so much!!!

In fact....not at all.

And the reason the horses are different in their way of going is purely because they do not have anything setting their heads in an unnatural position.

They can actually get their heads down and pull.

Apart from the obvious fact that America shows in acompletely different way, anyway.

 

[nootka]

I just found this thread today. I don't know why, but some good threads die an early death because of the timing or other factors. (for example some other threads like foaling will push away a thread about driving, etc. to where the ones interested won't see it on the main page unless you use the advanced features of the forum (I usually just read the main page, for example, I don't click the "new" or "unread" links).

I have yet to drive competitively (with one exception), and am very interested in achieving a happy medium of horse comfort and welfare blended with a decent performance.

I have witnessed the over the top methods of getting a horse to go in a style which commands a championship or first place ribbon. It is not about training (I've seen and overheard a nationally-acclaimed trainer bragging about their horse three days in harness, first day hitched going in the ring to show and later that horse blew apart a show cart and flipped over with the young driver), it is about appearances, as you said, and there is no consideration on how to get there.

Not ALWAYS, there ARE some trainers that manage to do both, or sacrifice less of the welfare to get the ribbon, but the top of the game is often full of people that use shortcuts to achieve them, and then we "newbies" follow them to try and get what we see as the highest form of approval for our training methods.

I didn't know when I first started driving about the use or reason for overchecks or sidechecks, martingales and the like. I used them the way I was shown or told to use them (to stop behavior issues) instead of getting to the root of the problem (which was likely inexperience on both my and the horse's parts).

I am always learning and enjoy this thread. Hopefully we can all learn from each other.

I know there are several board members and probably even more readers that are interested in this topic greatly.

Welcome to the board and thank you for the picture and discussion!

Liz

 

[susanne]

Ouburgia,

There are many Americans who ask the same questions as you! (...and in my case, more, making me rather annoying to some)

I would say, however, that what you see is a breed show ring phenomenom. ADS shows, CDEs, ADTs, etc., have more in common with European or British traditions

The way I see it, breed show driving is not about driving per se, but more of a "halter class in motion." It's about how the horse looks while harnessed, thus the minimal harness (but additional appliances, lol!).

I most likely will never drive in AMHR shows, as my interest lies in ADS shows and CDEs. I just hope people recognize the difference and don't drive their horses that way out of the ring.

Thanks for bringing up this topic...I wish more people would question silly traditions and trends and, as you said, think more for themselves.

 

[justagirl]

Not ALWAYS, there ARE some trainers that manage to do both, or sacrifice less of the welfare to get the ribbon, but the top of the game is often full of people that use shortcuts to achieve them, and then we "newbies" follow them to try and get what we see as the highest form of approval for our training methods.

I didn't know when I first started driving about the use or reason for overchecks or sidechecks, martingales and the like. I used them the way I was shown or told to use them (to stop behavior issues) instead of getting to the root of the problem (which was likely inexperience on both my and the horse's parts).

Liz

Here in lies the root of the problem IMO , and Liz I totally agree with the statements above.

Just recently I stipped my harness of it's overcheck , left the martingale in the barn and started working on getting my horse collected and on the bit without all the extra bells and whistles .

After a week or so of driving like this ... my bonafide stargazer was flexing and breaking at the poll and alot of his driving issues simply vanished.

So , like it's been said ... it's a show ring "thing" not neccessarily an American " thing" .

 

[hobbyhorse23]

The way I see it, breed show driving is not about driving per se, but more of a "halter class in motion." It's about how the horse looks while harnessed, thus the minimal harness (but additional appliances, lol!).

Show ring driving is about showing the HORSE, driving shows are about showing off the horse's training. Hence in one the fanciest, flashiest horse wins regardless of behavior and in the other a mediocre quality horse may win over a better-quality but more poorly-trained animal and will place higher and higher each year as their training progresses.

I'm a great fan of spending many years improving one particular horse so guess where I prefer to show?

I admit if I had an outstanding animal that was built to rule the breed ring I'd probably go where the ribbons were and show more there for a few years. I'd put on the check because I had to and probably even a martingale just for looks but they'd be applied like hoof polish- just for show. I absolutely refuse to put my horse's comfort and sanity behind a ribbon in priority. (Not saying anyone else is doing that so don't get your panties in a twist.

) But my dollars go where my heart is...to a sport that puts progressive training and self-carriage over the fast fix.

Leia