Driving horse bolts

[garyo]

We have a six year old mare that has been driving for about two 1/2 years. She has done breed shows, a 4th of July parade, given little kids cart rides etc. About a year ago we took her to a friends farm for a day of driving. She bolted almost as soon as I got in the cart. We thought a bee stung her. After a rather scary ride she calmed for me and Gary drove her around for another 1/2 hour or so. There had been no further incidents although admittedly she has not been driven but about two times since then until today. We started round penning her and her sister about a month ago to get them back into driving shape. They usually round pen together and the competition seems to motivate them. About a week after we started round penning them they were in the round pen together moving at a nice extended trot. All of the sudden the older mare whirled around and hit her sister head on knocking her off her feet. Luckily she only suffered a stinger type injury and is OK.

Yesterday I took the two sisters into the round pen separately. I put the bitting rig on each of them and ground drove them. The older mare ground drove in the big horse round pen very well. She responded to all commands including whoa, backed well etc. The younger sister did well for a still very green horse as well. Today we decided to hook them to carts (the younger with a lead attached for safety). The younger did very well once she got used to the blinders. When we went to get the older sister she did not want to be haltered in the paddock. Eventually we caught her and she was harnessed. Same harness she has always used except we were not able to use the side check as a friend borrowed it and a piece is missing so no check today. As soon as I got in the cart and Gary released it she began trotting around the house. When I went to ease her up she reared and bolted running over the well and burn barrel and tossing me from the cart. No bee this time, hmmm. Gathered myself up out of the dirt, yelled for Gary, turned off the broken well, checked the cart, harness & horse, Gary attached a lead and we were determined to end on a note other than this one. Went back to the front yard and climbed in the cart. She began to trot again. Gary said "Make her walk". I gave her the verbal command to walk and reined back a little. Well as you probably have guessed she reared and bolted again, ripping the lead from Gary's hand and headed right into the front porch area. After face planting me into a pillar. (Gary and Crystal say I tried to grab the pillar as she ran into it to stop the cart. That was DUMB!!!) Again I went flying from the cart. She went a few feet with the sideways cart and stopped. I am a little sore and will have a black and blue face tomorrow but otherwise everything is OK.

I plan to take her back to the round pen and alternate one day basic manners, one day ground driving until I feel safe with her again. We do not currently have a fenced in non-wooded, non-stumpy area in which to drive her so I may have to trailer her to a friends arena to drive when I am ready. Any other suggestions. Her teeth were done in January and we cannot see any hooks or other reason. I am using a copper french link snaffle bit that is not severe. Suggestions?

 

[susanne]

So both last year's and this year's incidents happened about the same time of year?

Is it possible that some long, winter hair got caught in the buckles of the girth? It happens quite easily when their coats get long.

 

[RhineStone]

When we went to get the older sister she did not want to be haltered in the paddock. Eventually we caught her and she was harnessed.

Gary said "Make her walk". I gave her the verbal command to walk and reined back a little. Well as you probably have guessed she reared and bolted again, ripping the lead from Gary's hand and headed right into the front porch area.

To make a long story short, you have management issues. She is taking more management than she should. You need to be the boss in EVERYTHING. Don't try to drive her again until you establish dominance. This can be more difficult with mares. Some Monty Roberts' Join Up would help (I don't follow one particular trainer, but glean bits from anybody that makes sense.)

I had this very same issue with my gelding, who would bolt when freaked out. I asked a well-known driving trainer and he gave me the same advice, "you need to be the boss". Go back to anything where the horse is not doing what you ask. Start in the halter. If you tie up the horse and put it in a place to stand and it moves, put it back. Do that over and over until they get the idea that it is easier to do what Mom and Dad say than to do what they want. Find places where the horse is making decisions and correct it.

I can expand on this later, but I "snuck" time on the computer while my husband was on the phone!

Myrna

 

[LazyRanch]

The not wanting to halter, when she has been willing before is the key: either, as Myrna says, management issues, or something is hurting her and she associates the halter with leading to what that pain might be.

I would go out and halter at random times of the day - many times - and tie her where she cannot get in trouble for maybe 15 to 20 minutes. Make it a pleasant event, maybe a cookie. At some random point, follow your round pen schedule, but for her alone. I would start her in a halter only, for a couple 3 days, then add her saddle, to crouper. if she is still working pleasantly, I would then add the bridle. I am assuming you have checked the saddle for barbs and the bit for any rough spots or pinching. You did say she was floated, so the vet would have mentioned wolf teeth, etc.

It sounds like you are working her loose? If so, I would have a lounge line in her at this point - I almost always lounge in a cavesson, but

a) that's my personal choice and upbringing

b) they are so hard to find in mini sizes that fit well, by the time one finds it, one is jolly well using it

c) there is much less opportunity for argument

At any rate, if the mare is going along quietly on the lounge, I would start working on a double long line, with LOTS of transitions - fewer halts, but lots of trot to walk, trot slow/medium/slow/walk, and add a few halts now and then. Don't just say the command, use you lines as you would in the cart. If the walks and trots are good, add turns and reversals, serpentines. Keep her thinking. For instance, if you get a nice trot transition, give it only about 6 or 7 strides then ask for something else, rather than let her trot around and around. Walk is always the hardest gait, so don't let her dawdle. Have a look at her hind feet: do they step over the track of her front feet? If not, encourage her, but don't let her trot. Add halt to walk on an infrequent basis.

This entire process may take weeks, so be prepared! But she will get fit

and if you have never used a double long line, learn! It will help you an awful lot with your baby. BTW, the fact this mare chose to knock the baby off her feet is a very clear dominance and intimidation signal. As Myrna says, you WILL need to establish herd dominance for yourself. All the above exercises are not so much about training - she has had that. What they are about is you giving her direct instructions, and her becoming accustomed to following them. It isn't "Me BOSS, you NOT" it IS about: We are working to become a team.

Finally, as you may have noticed, this requires a little more time than driving her once or twice a year! She's boss in the paddock, and has demonstrated her superiority in the round pen, now as well. Her "herd" the younger sister - and she appears to have moved you into the submissive herd category as well. I think you should stop working them together at all.

Is there a reason you cannot drive her in your round pen? I drive my guys in our "big horse" round pen all the time. It's where we brush up on things, and where I frequently introduce them to new, spooky hazards or experiences - like harness bells!

 

[garyo]

Thank you for your suggestions. You are both correct that she is the Boss mare. We have not had the sisters in the round pen together since their crash and will not do so again, waaay too scary. She did very well with the saddle and reins on Tuesday hence why I thought we were OK. Obeyed all commands, did figure 8's, showed, changed gaits etc. Apparently the whip and round pen gave me dominance there. I will need to do a little ground evening in the round pen in order to drive in there as it is loose sand. I believe you areboth right although I will give the equipment a thorough look tonight. The work is worth the result. I have done all the ground work on the sister and two geldings we have coming up and feel like I have much more of a connection.__

The not wanting to halter, when she has been willing before is the key: either, as Myrna says, management issues, or something is hurting her and she associates the halter with leading to what that pain might be.

I would go out and halter at random times of the day - many times - and tie her where she cannot get in trouble for maybe 15 to 20 minutes. Make it a pleasant event, maybe a cookie. At some random point, follow your round pen schedule, but for her alone. I would start her in a halter only, for a couple 3 days, then add her saddle, to crouper. if she is still working pleasantly, I would then add the bridle. I am assuming you have checked the saddle for barbs and the bit for any rough spots or pinching. You did say she was floated, so the vet would have mentioned wolf teeth, etc.

It sounds like you are working her loose? If so, I would have a lounge line in her at this point - I almost always lounge in a cavesson, but

a) that's my personal choice and upbringing

b) they are so hard to find in mini sizes that fit well, by the time one finds it, one is jolly well using it

c) there is much less opportunity for argument

At any rate, if the mare is going along quietly on the lounge, I would start working on a double long line, with LOTS of transitions - fewer halts, but lots of trot to walk, trot slow/medium/slow/walk, and add a few halts now and then. Don't just say the command, use you lines as you would in the cart. If the walks and trots are good, add turns and reversals, serpentines. Keep her thinking. For instance, if you get a nice trot transition, give it only about 6 or 7 strides then ask for something else, rather than let her trot around and around. Walk is always the hardest gait, so don't let her dawdle. Have a look at her hind feet: do they step over the track of her front feet? If not, encourage her, but don't let her trot. Add halt to walk on an infrequent basis.

This entire process may take weeks, so be prepared! But she will get fit

and if you have never used a double long line, learn! It will help you an awful lot with your baby. BTW, the fact this mare chose to knock the baby off her feet is a very clear dominance and intimidation signal. As Myrna says, you WILL need to establish herd dominance for yourself. All the above exercises are not so much about training - she has had that. What they are about is you giving her direct instructions, and her becoming accustomed to following them. It isn't "Me BOSS, you NOT" it IS about: We are working to become a team.

Finally, as you may have noticed, this requires a little more time than driving her once or twice a year! She's boss in the paddock, and has demonstrated her superiority in the round pen, now as well. Her "herd" the younger sister - and she appears to have moved you into the submissive herd category as well. I think you should stop working them together at all.

Is there a reason you cannot drive her in your round pen? I drive my guys in our "big horse" round pen all the time. It's where we brush up on things, and where I frequently introduce them to new, spooky hazards or experiences - like harness bells!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with Myrna. There is definitely a place for what she's discussing but what concerns me is that without more information we cannot be sure what is going on. What was the mare's demeanor when she bolted? Was she frightened, angry, nervous? Did she hollow her back, throw her head up and bolt blindly or put her head down, rip the reins out of your hands and willfully take off? Was her "trotting" a fast choppy unhappy "I wanna get away" jig, or a "You can't stop me, I wanna go faster" prelude to running?

If this mare is being caused pain by something in her harnessing, bitting or body, of course she's going to start trying to avoid being haltered and asserting your dominance is going to do very little good. There's a big difference between letting the horse get away with stuff and noticing that your horse has a legitimate complaint and is trying to tell you about it. One is poor horsemanship, the other is common sense and good partnership. It's like punishing a child for lagging behind when he's got a stone in his shoe. He tries to tell you, you say "No, you're just being lazy. Walk faster." The child tries to do so but it hurts and he slows down and then gets spanked for not obeying. That sort of scenario happens all the time with our animals!

Now even if pain is what's causing her bolting OF COURSE she needs some work on discipline. Myrna is right that it is not her decision to make to run off with you no matter what but it is our responsibility as good owners to notice the smallest signs of discomfort or fear and remedy the problem before it becomes a larger issue. Ideally our horses learn to trust us enough to stop when something hurts or scares them and look to us for guidance. She needs to be retrained until that is her first response no matter what and that may be quite difficult if she's an independent mare. It is also, however, extremely important to check every single thing about her harnessing and body and rule out pain as a cause of her behavior. It's unfair to do otherwise! If a pinched nerve in her neck is sending shooting pain down her back every time she turns her head to the right (as an example) she is not going to get any better or enjoy her work until a chiropractor has seen her and released the misalignment.

Do go back to basics on discipline on the ground. Do start over on her harness training and appropriate responses. Do check over every square inch of her harness for places that might be pinching, pulling, rubbing, poking or otherwise soring her. Even a rough knot in the stitching could be irritating her to the point where she decides to get rid of it by bolting if she's willful. Have a vet or chiropractor (preferrably someone who is both) check her out from head to toe. And then be careful!

I'm so glad you weren't hurt worse and hope we can get this resolved for you.

Just one last thing- it concerns me a little to hear you say "Today we decided to hook them to carts...The younger did very well once she got used to the blinders." Are you saying you put on the blinders and the cart for the first time on the same day??

If so, I would break your training down into smaller steps to avoid the kind of situation you're facing now with her older sister.

Leia

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Ha, the difficulty with posting replies while at work is that they sit on my screen for a long time while I take calls and then I haven't read the other replies when I make mine!

If your girl is that dominant then yes, she needs a few sharp lessons on who is boss. I interpreted her knocking her sister off her feet as an accidental byproduct of her whirling for some other reason but if she did it intentionally or simply because she didn't care that's another thing. Still, if she isn't wanting to be haltered she isn't enjoying her work for whatever reason and to me that still indicates a problem that needs to be resolved whether mental or physical.

All the above exercises are not so much about training - she has had that. What they are about is you giving her direct instructions, and her becoming accustomed to following them. It isn't "Me BOSS, you NOT" it IS about: We are working to become a team.

Sheer dominance games really bug me unless it's an aggressive stallion who really needs to learn you are king. Otherwise, too often people who are taught to play those games seem to think it means their horse must never be allowed to initiate a game, express an opinion, look at anything the owner didn't expressly tell him to...in short, he must act like a machine and not a person. Playing with horses loses all its enjoyment for me if I do that! I like the interaction with another personality! But you do need to earn their respect and they must respect your leadership position in the end. To me that's partly trust, partly experience and partly discipline.

Is there a reason you cannot drive her in your round pen? I drive my guys in our "big horse" round pen all the time. It's where we brush up on things, and where I frequently introduce them to new, spooky hazards or experiences - like harness bells!

A big horse round pen is a bit different. Most of us have mini-sized roundpens no horse could drive in and often we build up the footing to be quite deep in there for conditioning purposes. I would ride in a round pen but never drive in one as it is so much harder for a driving horse to be on a continuous turn. Most greenies would go insane if never allowed to straighten out!

Leia

 

[keely2682]

wow. can't believe Kaluha is acting like this. will call you to discuss

 

[RhineStone]

It isn't "Me BOSS, you NOT" it IS about: We are working to become a team.

Yes, I agree that we are working towards the team aspect, but SOOO many people skip the dominance factor and try to go straight to the team. Horses don't work like that. They understand a heirarchy. An Alpha horse isn't the one other horses generally have to look out for, they have already established themselves. It's the Beta (or 2nd in command) horse that is the difficult one in the herd that will push, bite, and kick other horses. If owners/handlers go straight for the team, they haven't established themselves as Alpha and the horses pick up on this and try to get the upper hand. Mares especially can be difficult to "break" of the Alpha status, especially if their dam was an Alpha mare. People need to get the horse to respect them first, and THEN work on the team aspect. It won't work otherwise, no matter how "nice" you are to your horse. In order to do that, it IS "Me boss, you not" until the horse understands that you are Alpha. THEN the horse will be much more cooperative, have a better work ethic, trust you, etc. Why would a horse trust someone they don't respect? The Alpha moves the herd, not the lowest ranking individual. Sounds like good parenting, eh?

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

First of all, sorry to the OP for going off-topic for a minute here.

Yes, I agree that we are working towards the team aspect, but SOOO many people skip the dominance factor and try to go straight to the team. ... If owners/handlers go straight for the team, they haven't established themselves as Alpha and the horses pick up on this and try to get the upper hand. ... People need to get the horse to respect them first, and THEN work on the team aspect. It won't work otherwise, no matter how "nice" you are to your horse. In order to do that, it IS "Me boss, you not" until the horse understands that you are Alpha. THEN the horse will be much more cooperative, have a better work ethic, trust you, etc. Why would a horse trust someone they don't respect? The Alpha moves the herd, not the lowest ranking individual. Sounds like good parenting, eh?

It's exactly like good parenting!

The parent should be the unquestioned leader, especially in case of emergency, but they don't do it by overtly dominating the child from the start and keeping them from expressing any opinions. They insist those opinions be expressed politely and at appropriate times, but they are welcomed.

I give any horse I meet a fair chance to be mannerly and if they are not respectful they will be correctly disciplined until they show respect (not to be mistaken for fear) and then I go back to treating them like a partner with skills worth developing. Not being nice to them; too many times "being nice" means "There there nice pony, please won't you do this thing if I beg you to?" and that is NOT effective. But being a confident, respectful leader who is secure in my position without having to prove it by constantly putting the other person down. I think most of us do that but when I hear the words "You must establish dominance immediately" I think of old-time cowboys who believed you must break a horse's spirit before you train him. Rope them down until they give in and proceed from there. Ugh! I have no doubt that's not what you mean, but it's what I think of when I hear that.

Usually making them move their feet in showmanship or obstacle type maneuvers and insisting they don't graze without permission, etc., is enough to establish leadership in a quiet way.

Maybe that's the difference. I see "dominance" as adversarial and "leadership" as simple respect for position so I only need to enforce dominance if the horse has already set himself against me.

Leia

 

[garyo]

To answer a few of the questions raised here. There appear to be no defects with the harness of any kind and it is the harness she has always used. We are in Florida and she has not developed a long enough coat to be pulled by the harness. Her teeth appear fine and the bit appears to have no spurs, cracks etc. She exhibits no pain flinches of any kind when pressed or rubbed. Her expression was not one of panic or fear. She reared, lowered her head and bolted. Even when I was screaming whoa and pulling back to the point of almost lifting her front end off the ground she drove forward with focused determination. Once she dumped me she stopped in a short distance both times with the harness still on and the cart still behind her. The cart was not small on her or crowding her. I have not gained weight nor did she appear to have any extra weight on her (it was balanced)

Tonight she came to me for a cookie in the paddock but would not come to Gary. When he haltered her in the barn she was compliant, walked nicely, whoa'd and even ground tied. We will continue to work on manners and compliance through reinforcement and repetition. I happen to be a certified behavior analyst as part of my job. We will go back to ground work in the round pen and eventually in the yard before harnessing her to a cart again.

Thank you for your suggestions

 

[garyo]

To answer a few of the questions raised here. There appear to be no defects with the harness of any kind and it is the harness she has always used. We are in Florida and she has not developed a long enough coat to be pulled by the harness. Her teeth appear fine and the bit appears to have no spurs, cracks etc. She exhibits no pain flinches of any kind when pressed or rubbed. Her expression was not one of panic or fear. She reared, lowered her head and bolted. Even when I was screaming whoa and pulling back to the point of almost lifting her front end off the ground she drove forward with focused determination. Once she dumped me she stopped in a short distance both times with the harness still on and the cart still behind her. The cart was not small on her or crowding her. I have not gained weight nor did she appear to have any extra weight on her (it was balanced)

Tonight she came to me for a cookie in the paddock but would not come to Gary. When he haltered her in the barn she was compliant, walked nicely, whoa'd and even ground tied. We will continue to work on manners and compliance through reinforcement and repetition. I happen to be a certified behavior analyst as part of my job. We will go back to ground work in the round pen and eventually in the yard before harnessing her to a cart again.

Thank you for your suggestions

 

[hairicane]

Oh Gary and Ruth Im so glad u are ok and Ruth I really hope u will go to a Dr if you think anything is hurt badly. Do as I say not as I do. I still have a big lump on 1 side of the back of my head from an injury almost 2 years ago where one of our stallions reared in a stall and fell over on me :arg!. When he fell on me it slammed my head into a big post. Ruth your injury sounds very painful! Take care and use extreme caution!!!

 

[RhineStone]

First of all, sorry to the OP for going off-topic for a minute here.

too many times "being nice" means "There there nice pony, please won't you do this thing if I beg you to?" and that is NOT effective. I think most of us do that but when I hear the words "You must establish dominance immediately" I think of old-time cowboys who believed you must break a horse's spirit before you train him. Rope them down until they give in and proceed from there. Ugh! I have no doubt that's not what you mean, but it's what I think of when I hear that.

I don't think we are off-topic at all. I think we have determined that bolting here is definitely a power thing and not a fear thing. Alax's bolting was a fear thing, but he was still making decisions he shouldn't be allowed to make. Once we got past that aspect, the bolting went away. He still "offers" to bolt by tensing up and raising his head, but AS SOON as Mom says no (actually it got melded into the word/command, "BRAIN!") he realizes that Mom is in control and he needs to listen to me.

I don't think we are that far off in our ideas, but it is just another way of thinking about it. Face it, minis and ponies can have a reputation of being bratty and obnoxious. I think this is directly correlated to too many owners not wanting to or realizing that minis should be disciplined. They think that because they are "little" that somehow they are fragile as well. If those same bratty, obnoxious behaviors were exhibited by 15-16 hand horses, they would be labelled as "problem horses", but lots of mini people just "put up" with it. BTW, I CAN'T STAND it when a mare throws her head at me!

No, I definitely don't advocate the old-time cowboy method, and actually with having "hot-blood" horses, that doesn't work so well anyway. Maybe more with a QH, but definitely NOT an Arab or Saddlebred! You will get yourself killed before that would work! But, regardless, the trend is to get as far away from that as possible to the point where people won't discipline at all. The whole, "Don't spank your child in public" thing has migrated to our livestock as well. When's the last time you saw a mare "tell" her foal, "Please don't push me around..." No, she says with a nip, "Knock it off, you little brat!" When the foal approaches with manners, she coddles. If not, she nips. Myself and a number of other driving trainers give everyone "permission to spank". Even in public!

There is a happy medium between "old cowboy" and "new philosophy".

Myrna

 

[~Lisa~]

I have to say there is no way for anyone to tell you from a post if the horse has power issues at play, is scared- belligerent or anything else for that matter.

The ideas and suggestions are great but they are just that. It is usually not a pleasant experience for a horse to runaway with a cart attached. IMO a very different experience from the horses view then running away with a rider.

My advice for whatever it is worth is to find an experienced 3rd person to come out and watch/help. No matter how experienced any horse or driver is I think it is always helpful to get another fresh set of eyes who might be able to spot something you can not.

Especially when the horse is bolting.. at that point you the driver are thinking of coming out of this alive and horse ok.. the SO or child or family member is not watching to see what the horse is doing or why as they are worried about the driver who is crashing wildly into things (hmmm can you tell her I have had some experiences like this) but a 3rd or even 4th person might be able to pick up on something during this whole scenario that you guys are not due to being concerned with other things like living to tell about it lol

The last thing I would do at this point is get into a power struggle cat fight with your horse- I personally think there is more going on here then a power issue but again no way anyone can tell you anything without actually seeing the horse in action.

I know a runaway can be unnerving for both horse and driver and anyone watching not to mention painful- good luck I hope you can figure out what is going on with her

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I believe some horses are not mentally stable enough for harness work. You can try lots of things and knock yourself out, blame yourself, whatever--the horse is not suitable for harness work. Whether your horse is one of these, only you can tell. Some horses can't be ridden safely. Some can't be driven safely. We can learn alot from these horses, but they can also destroy our confidence.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Her teeth were done in January and we cannot see any hooks or other reason. I am using a copper french link snaffle bit that is not severe. Suggestions?

A lot can change in a horse's mouth in almost a year and it isn't always easy to see inside without using a speculum. Did she have wolf teeth that have been removed or is it possible she has wolf teeth under the gums which are not visible but would still be an issue? I would first have her teeth checked again. It has been my experience that most difficulties arise from dental issues. You said you ground drove her and she seemed fine but then when you went to get her to work her again she didn't want to be caught or haltered - sounds like she wasn't looking forward to what she knew was coming. It was when you went to slow her down that she bolted - the time when the bit would come into play more strongly. I wasn't there so am only suggesting that perhaps you were even stronger with your hands than you normally would be as you were maybe a bit nervous about her behaviour?

She turned and attacked her sister which is somewhat out of character - she could quite possibly be hormonal which mares can be or it could be caused by a reproductive organ issue that is possibly painful making her grumpy and aggressive.

You don't seem to be having a problem with her inhand other than her hesitancy to be haltered so I wouldn't expect that it is a dominance problem.

I agree with Lisa, we weren't there and really can't give you a solid opinion. I think that in the case of a very dangerous situation like bolting it is time to call in a professional or at least someone with lots of experience to give you hands on advice.