Driving Question

[hobbyhorse23]

The point of my post is that people could benefit from taking lessons if they are unsure of anything. Lots easier learning the first time correctly than to guess and retrain.

Very true and excellent advice! I apologize for asking publically and going off-topic but my PM box is full.

And I do believe that a horse that does CDE does need to have a decent head set or maybe I should say head position or head placement because I am not meaning that they should not move their head when I say head set.. I have some reading to do I guess.

Ah, okay. When most riding people I know say "head set," at least in this part of the country, they do mean that the horse should never move their head from a fixed vertical position and they use all sorts of devices to create that so it's got some negative connotations for me.

Sorry about the confusion! I think you may be meaning more "acceptance of the bit" and "using the topline." If the horse is using his topline, relaxed, and accepting the bit then he will become round and his head will go on the vertical naturally. He will also track up and move in balance which, as you said, is of ultimate importance in all three phases.

Leia

 

[shorthorsemom]

That must be it! My trainer was remarking on how nice they were flexing and they were not hollow backed but rather coming up as if under saddle nicely rounded and how nice they were placing their heads and going on the bit. She also said my one boy did a nice shoulder in too. I'm loving this. I had to quit full sized horse riding after a bad wreck, I got into minis because I realized I still needed a horse, just a smaller package. I am loving how much our minis can do and laughing at how many people just think all they are good for is a pasture ornament or pocket pets. Not my guys anyway... So much you can do and learn. A fun new chapter to explore. enjoy, thanks for the feedback.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic. Sorry Ian!

Leia

 

[Celtic Hill Farm]

Lol it's ok! I get confused on what term to use, I use head set, meaning the head is set nicely! But after doing dressage stuff, i don't like that word. Because A Head Set, is when people just pull there horses head in, and don't acutally have a proper collection. I don't know what to call a horse that is in a proper frame, driving from behind and all.

Ok, so yea i'm gonna talk to too my boss and she if she is willing to help me. I think that my Cousin, Trains Driving horses. Not sure, i'm gonna have to ask her. She dose like all kinds of Seats, and i think that she also said Driving.

 

[Celtic Hill Farm]

Oh yea! Horse Illustrated had a Article on "dressage for your driving horse" and they talked about (that word, weather it be, Head set, Frame, Collected, On the vertical, ect)

They said when they are training there CDE horses they use a sliding side reins "In early lessons, Trainers Typically use sliding side reins to teach the horse about bit contact and head position (sliding side reins form a triangle when run from the bottom of the girth through each side of the bit to the surcingle.) these can be use when Long Lining, Longeing or driving; if used when driving, care must be taken to be sure they can not get caught on the shafts. The elevation, subtle action and weight on the side reins imitate the proper hand-to-rein contact of driving."

 

[Celtic Hill Farm]

Is this what they were talking about?

http://www.lionhorse.com/images/product_im...mages/207_0.jpg

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Yep, those are sliding side reins Ian.

I much prefer them to fixed sidereins as instead of teaching the horse to keep a steady headset they teach them to use their backs and really learn to elevate the root of the neck which is a far more difficult lesson for some horses.

Which issue of Horse Illustrated has the article? I'd love to read it.

I don't know what to call a horse that is in a proper frame, driving from behind and all.

I think you've nailed it! "Traveling in a proper frame" or "going forward on the bit" are both great descriptions.

Leia

 

[Alex]

I absolutely love sliding side reins. For the first few months of my geldings ground driving training, he wasnt properly going with the bit and just was not accepting to me at all. Yes we were only ground driving but ground driving is the most skipped over part in my opinion. Ground driving is the FOUNDATION of the driving horses career, and that is the time that is one of the biggest parts of driving training IMO. Anyway, I tried sliding side reins, and within 2 days of ground driving, long lining, and lunging, I had him going nicely underneath himself, his back working with him. And then his head just fell into place. almost vertical and comming nicely of his sloping shoulder. I only used those 3 times and thats all it took. Well, and of couse TIME. He rarly gets a check(only in tall grass, or hes feelking really hungary

) and a check was not used to develop his headset.

A "headset" to me, means the horses head position with the proper frame. If i use the word headset please dont hurt me.

A word of caution with sliding side reins though: The best way to start using sliding side reins on a horse is to have a set of driving lines attached to the bit, and then also the sliding side reins. At first, you will need the regular lins to stop the horse because if you just had sliding side reins and you pulled, and the horse didnt know the word "whoa" you would be just making his head drop and behind the bit. I dont know if thats clear as mud, but mabe Leia could tell it clearer.

And of couse, with using any applience, soft but firm and steady hands are key.

Lastly, TIME is not an enemy. It takes time to teach a driving horse how to use their bodies. Ive been ground driving my 2 year old gelding since this past January. In January we didnt have a bit, but were woring on harnessing, cues, etc and we progressed from there. And I will be still ground driving him all the way till this spring when its hitching time. Some may same Im taking to long and it is a bit unnessesary, but I dont think so.

Alex

 

[shorthorsemom]

I am taking my time too Alex and you are totally right about the hands, I am getting alot of instruction on proper hands... We will be ground driving all winter and well into the spring according to my trainer. I am also working with two boys so it takes longer when I split my time. No matter how long it takes, we will be building foundation the whole time. One of my boys is a retired stallion, now a gelding. He is a sweet boy we are working to preserve his ego and make sure he is enjoying the experience along the way. I co-own this boy with Crayonbox Miniatures and Kim. She has started a driving journal of our driving training with Chips on her website if anybody wants to peek. I am enjoying having a photo record of our progress.. I never heard of sliding side reins, something new to read more about, thanks for sharing.

 

[Celtic Hill Farm]

Ok, When can i introduce these? where do i get them? can i make them?

 

[Alex]

I would start with them after your girls are good with commands and can walk, trot, and stop patiently with you behind them.

Off the top of my head I cant think of where you can get them off the top of my head, but I can look into it.

Yes, you can make them, with a few references and pictures its possible.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

A "headset" to me, means the horses head position with the proper frame. If i use the word headset please dont hurt me.

I promise! Maybe we could just say he "has a good head position" instead of head set? That's what we really mean, after all.

A word of caution with sliding side reins though: The best way to start using sliding side reins on a horse is to have a set of driving lines attached to the bit, and then also the sliding side reins. At first, you will need the regular lins to stop the horse because if you just had sliding side reins and you pulled, and the horse didnt know the word "whoa" you would be just making his head drop and behind the bit. I dont know if thats clear as mud, but mabe Leia could tell it clearer.

Okay, ya lost me there for a minute. Are you saying you had sliding reins that went all the way back to your hands?

Those are draw reins, and that is NOT the same thing. Draw reins apply leverage to the horse's mouth and are very easy to misuse although I'm sure in the proper hands they could be beneficial. I did use draw reins in conjunction with normal reins on my riding horse for a very short time to achieve a very specific purpose but the longer length of driving reins means much more leverage, more potential for abuse. True sliding side reins are just that- side reins. They are fixed both top and bottom so there is no leverage, only a length of cord the horse can stretch along to find his balance.

Here's a picture of my homemade sliding side reins the first day I had them on the horse, while he was still figuring out where he'd be comfortable. Here he's resisting and using his underline far too much:

You can see how far they allowed him to stretch as he explored their limits. He quickly found a stable position somewhere in between these two extremes and as he got more experience I shortened them:

They're very easy to make Ian, all they are is one long length of non-burning twine with a snap on each end and a swivel snap in the middle to attach to your surcingle girth. (You can leave off the snap and simply run the twine through the girth on your driving saddle if you want to use that, or put a loop over the girth to attach the snap to.) I just tie a knot in one side to shorten it or let it out. When driving you attach them the same way, from the saddle up under the neckstrap of the breastcollar (to keep it from getting caught on the shafts) to the bit and down to the girth. Then you drive as normal but the loosely-adjusted sliding side reins help remind the horse to flex down if he starts getting tense and hollowing out.

There's some really good drawings and photos of this in Heike Bean's "Carriage Driving" book which I highly recommend.

Leia

 

[Alex]

Leia-

My brain was thinking Draw Reins, but I was meaning to talk about sliding side reins. Uhh, lets go delete that paragraph

I dont know what land I was in...

 

[Celtic Hill Farm]

Leia, how long are your sliding side reins?

 

[keely2682]

have to say that the sliding side reins and passoa lunging aide (snapped to a halter not the bit) are wonderful gadgets

poor lightening practically lived in them this summer