Dwarf Question.....

[Tremor]

We have a 2010 foal who in all honestly we assumed she was a dwarf. She had a 50/50% chance of being so, and at birth we thought she was. We honestly swore that she was. I mean, it wasn't something that we were proud or wanted to do, but it was a definite change from some dwarf owners refusing to accept the fact that their little horse was in fact a dwarf.

I better start out with her parents.

Sire: Dagnillos Crown Jewels (A Known Dwarf Producer)

http://www.allbreedp...os+crown+jewels

Dam: RJ Double B Bit A Honey (Known Dwarf Producer and Possible Dwarf Herself)

http://www.allbreedp...e+b+bit+a+honey

Continued into Next Post due to Pictures.

 

[Tremor]

Continued.

Now, I would also like to say that this was NOT a planned breeding. We had both horses separated from each other for the whole 2009 breeding season. Lo and behold that a family member let the stallion out with her. August 10th, 2010 a beautiful little miracle foal was born.

Connor (At Birth):

Yesterday (8 months old):

Me, and some other people could not believe that she was so.....small and refined. Proportioned even! She is about 22'' tall and has grown about 3-4'' since she was born. The only thing that I see "off" about her conformation is her neck, which is short. Heck, her sire couldn't fix everything Honey (Her dam) through into the mix. But, he sure did fix A LOT! Her joints aren't big at all. The pictures make her knees look big, but they aren't. Its the fur. I apologize for the shoddy clipping. All four pairs of clippers quit on me.

I'm just very curious as to what you guys think of her. I am stumped. My mom is stumped. All of my internet buddies are stumped.

We have no stallions or anything that could harm Connor or her dam. No more foals. I promise. We delivered her sire to his new home today. All we have now are:

Bow- mare

Teddy- gelding

Honey- mare

Pete- gelding

Connor- filly

Sweetheart Raindrop- filly

So, no worries in that department.

If she is a dwarf, what do you think she'll look like?

Um, thanks for reading this; even though I'm sure you guys had more important things to do than read my useless thread. I apologize.

-Julia

 

[Tremor]

To whomever voted,

Thank you for doing so. I'm looking for any imput. The more votes Yes or No the better I'll feel. This is the best way for me to get my answer since there is no genetic testing.

Thanks again!

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

i voted yes...honestly, something about her just screams dwarf to me, same with her mom.

i could very well be wrong but thats what my inner voice is telling me lol.

she is very cute though

EDITED BY ADMIN

 

[Tremor]

i voted yes...honestly, something about her just screams dwarf to me, same with her mom.

i could very well be wrong but thats what my inner voice is telling me lol.

she is very cute though

Thank you. That's what I was looking for.

My inner voice was telling me the same thing when she was born.

Plus, there's nothing that could be said about this topic that can offend me. I've heard it all about this girl. People seem to think she's the scum of the planet and not the miracle baby that I know. Their loss. *shrugs*

 

[Tremor]

I'm the one who voted and I'll tell you, his "at birth" pictures I wasn't sure, but the ones of him growing I think are showing that he is getting more and more "dwarfy" if that's a word. He's beautiful, but to me, on the "side views" he has no neck, and although his body looks long--he has very short little legs. Also there is "something" in his face that has the "roughness" of a dwarf -- perhaps the longer bottom jaw with his lower lip protruding.

There are many kinds of dwarfs, but he appears to me to be an Achondroplasia dwarf.

The US Miniature Horse website has some excellent information

Achondroplasia

Literally "shortened extremities", some types of equine achondroplastic dwarfism have specific physical characteristics such as short limbs and small ears with a normal head, neck and torso. These deformities do not adversely affect the intelligence or lifespan of the horse.

Figure 1 - Gidget - A rescue dwarf

Thank you so much for your reply. I've had her called a Diastrophia dwarf and Achondroplasia as well. Exactly what I was looking for in replies. Honest answers to halt my wandering thoughts. Perhaps I'm just lucky in her physical characteristics?

It will be very interesting to watch her grow up for sure.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Hi

I voted yes. To me the baby pics said yes due to the length of neck being shorter than the length of head. Other characteristics are very subtle in the pictures you provided. The current pics are very obvious in my opinion. Also, I believe the dam exhibits strong visual characteristics as well.

I applaud you for coming to the board and asking for education.

I am not familiar with your stallion or where he may have gone, but if you haven't, you may want to inform them he is a carrier. IMO, carriers should never be bred, but I do realize not everyone agrees with that line of thinking.

Your little one is adorable and obviously well loved.

 

[Tremor]

Hi

I voted yes. To me the baby pics said yes due to the length of neck being shorter than the length of head. Other characteristics are very subtle in the pictures you provided. The current pics are very obvious in my opinion. Also, I believe the dam exhibits strong visual characteristics as well.

I applaud you for coming to the board and asking for education.

I am not familiar with your stallion or where he may have gone, but if you haven't, you may want to inform them he is a carrier. IMO, carriers should never be bred, but I do realize not everyone agrees with that line of thinking.

Your little one is adorable and obviously well loved.

I agree with everything said here, lol. Connor has her dam's neck. Short. I myself am unable to see the subtle signs with my untrained eye, but I am sure that they're there!

We did tell the owners that he was a carrier and they were planning on gelding him. They were going to use him as a pet. Just something to have fun with.

We do love her. Her personality shows it. She's spoiled as all get out. Spunky too!

Thanks again!

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I agree with everything said here, lol. Connor has her dam's neck. Short. I myself am unable to see the subtle signs with my untrained eye, but I am sure that they're there!

We did tell the owners that he was a carrier and they were planning on gelding him. They were going to use him as a pet. Just something to have fun with.

We do love her. Her personality shows it. She's spoiled as all get out. Spunky too!

Thanks again!

Kudos to you for informing them! That type of honesty is refreshing.

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

People seem to think she's the scum of the planet and not the miracle baby that I know.

thats horrible! just because she's different doesnt mean she's scum! some people

thats like saying someone with autism is scum just because they're different! people can be terrible.

i think she's adorable

 

[Sandee]

I voted yes. To me the forehead is pronounced ( domed) and the neck short. It also looks like she may have an over bite (although I've seen others whose bite is on have that [what I call] ugly elongated lip). She appears to have gotten the mare's head ( although it's difficult to see the mare's face buried in the hay). Other than that she doesn't look "bad" really. If it were years ago, she'd probably pass as a "cute little horse" but people are now more aware of the dwarfy looks.

By the way, thanks for having what it takes to ask and post. It's refreshing and a good way for many to learn.

 

[Carolyn R]

It is great you are opening yourself up to this conversation. I have to say, as others did, it is obvious in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th photos. Her head is as long as her neck, the third photos she is extremely thick in appearance and the last two photos her body looks long in comparison to the short length of neck.

Dwarfs tend to have an extremely affectionate and easy going spirit about them, sometimes even choosing human companionship over that of othert equines.

Kudos to you for being so open about her.

I am sure she is loved.

 

[ohmt]

I say no but I bet she is a dwarf carrier. If you go to the dwarf part of the forum on here where john eberth answers questions you will learn a ton. There are a lot of badly conformed minis out there and many times people label them as dwarf when they are not. Watch the legs-they will tell you. I don't think her dam is a dwarf either based on her legs, but she does not have good conformation and is a dwarf carrier with some dwarf characteristics peaking through. Definitely read some of John's threads. He explains alot about dwarfs and their genetics. Many people posted pics of their horses asking him if they were dwarf or not. Most of the time he said no despite many people telling them the horse was. I say no to dwarf, yes to badly conformed.

P.s. how's your preggy girl doing?

 

[horsehug]

OHMT,

I checked "I do not know" but I tend to agree with you. I'd love to hear John's opinion. I value his input tremendously and have talked with him about dwarfism for years. I am anxiously awaiting his tests to be available.

Susan O.

 

[Blackwater Farm]

This is a tough one! There are certain things that make me want to say yes, the domed head and short neck like the others have mentioned. But I also see the point of OHMT in that she may be a carrier with some minimal dwarf characteristics showing through. Her legs dont look bad, again like OHMT said it will show in the legs too. She also doesn't have that rouched (sp?) back either. I CANNOT believe that anyone would think that such a cute little girl would be anything close to scum. That is just crazy! Just because she's a little different doesnt mean she doesnt have a purpose in life. My gelding is a little dwarfy too I think and if anyone were to say anything remotely bad about him I would probably have to deck 'em cause he's the love of my life!!!! Other than the hubby of course!!! As long as you love her and she brings joy to your life than she is just as precious as any other of the horsie angels in our lives and that is all that matters!

 

[bluerogue]

I voted no. I agree that she is badly conformed, as is her dam. Neither of them need to be bred. Both of them show dwarf characteristics. They both have short necks, big heads, but their leg bones are not too short (cannon bones aren't markedly shorter than they "should" be). I don't see roached backs, or pot bellies. I have a reputation among my friends as a hip nazi... If a horse doesn't have a good hip, chances are I won't like it. Neither of your girls have good hips. Their hips are short, steep, and lack depth. The filly's hip is better than her dams, however. So, no, I don't think they are dwarves themselves, but I can see that they could carry the gene. I also don't think they are very well conformed, which is why we are wondering.

I had a horse who also showed a dwarf characteristic, and I wondered about him. His one foal (a whoops from an intruder trespassing and opening gates) was also a funny looking child. But, while they were not well conformed, and had a dwarf characteristic, they weren't dwarves (John Eberth himself said they weren't, just poorly conformed). They were cute, small, sweet, and everyone loved them. They both had what I call very extreme arab type heads, and tended to be very easy keepers, which added to the look that they could have been dwarves (tended to get big fat bellies- add that to their heads, and voila, instant dwarf accusation). Danny has what arab people would call a Jibbah (or so the arab enthusiast told me it was called- apparently it's a sought after thing in arabs). You could cup your hand on his forehead, it wasn't flat. But it also wasn't domed. He has an extreme dish, and his bite was off for a couple years as a youngster, but it came back and is straight now, or was when I sold him. His head could give people the impression that he might be a dwarf, it is so dished. Danny (the sire) is now a gelding, living with a very happy young man, and his son is sadly deceased. Echo managed to crawl under a fence at 4 months old, and ate some mushrooms. Within a week, his liver and kidneys had failed, and we lost him. I'm trying out the attachment thing... hopefully it works. Danny is a silver buckskin, so if you see a silver buckskin pic here, that's him. This was taken right before he was gelded, and went to his new home. He was 6 here. If it doesn't work, and anyone wants to see him, feel free to ask.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I voted Yes.

A the moment everything that is known about Dwarfs is educated (some of it, admittedly very educated) guess work. We do not know even if the dwarfism is recessive or dominant. or how the supposed different forms of dwarfism (which may or may not be related) are expressed.

The dam appears to be a dwarf, the sire is known to "carry" dwarfism (I assume he has sired dwarfs?) so the foal had a well over 50/50 chance (sorry, useless at %) of being a dwarf, and I think she definitely is. You appear to have her life mapped out for her and I think that is really great, you are obviously a good owner, and is hard that you have had to learn such a lesson so early on, but really valuable, too. That which does not kill you will only make you stronger!

I think her dwarfism will become more pronounced as she grows older, and I can already see a few problems with her feet- you might want to get your farrier to show you how to pare her as I think it is going to be well worth your while to be able to do her far more often than the other horses.

I do commend your attitude- have you joined the Dwarf Forum yet, it would be a good thing to do, I think.

 

[bannerminis]

I voted yes as I just see a dwarf granted a minimal one and as the others said its the shape of the head, short neck and limbs. The mare looks dwarfy but its not the best pic.

The sire if he were mine and a known dwarf producer as you said yourself he would now be minus his tackle and be living the life of a happy little gelding.

Lovely to see how much you care for your minis and your little one is not the scum of the earth and brings you joy and is your little miracle

.

 

[Manyspots]

wow what a shock this AM to see that your stallion is a known dwarf producer! are you sure it is not the mares he has bred previously that are dwarf producers? I knew your sires stallion when Dagnillos owned him and he has some nice offspring out there. And I own the dam, who sired our AMHR National Champion 30 & Under Country Pleasure Driving Stallion. We are waiting for a foal by him now, gotta say this scares the heck out of me. Your dam of the little filly is obviously not a good candidate but your stallion from just looking at doesn't say dwarf producer to me at all. Our stallion is Timberviews Santiago

 

[ohmt]

Manyspots- John Eberth has said he believes all dwarfism types to be homozygous autosomal recessive which means I comes from both parents.

Rabbitsfizz- to what I wrote to manyspots, that is what I have read from John's work. Is there some new research that I haven't seen that points towards any of the types being dominant?

Also there is no such thing as a minimal dwarf to those that have used the term on here. A horse either is or isn't, there is no in between. A heterozygous carrier may have that recessive gene compete with the dominant one thus giving some dwarf 'characteristics'. I saw a few people one here say she is achondroplasia and she is not. That is characterized by the 'bad' legs only and this filly does not have that. The short neck is not a characteristic of that type. A horse can exhibit many characteristics of dwarfism and not be a dwarf.

I apologize for any typos is advance- i'm using my phone to type this