Dwarfs (Registries and our responsibilities)

[R Whiteman]

The discussion on another thread leads to several questions.

Should AMHA and AMHR have a easy procedure to report animals being used for breeding that are dwarves or show characteristics of dwarfism? Should owners be required to report any mare or stallion that produces a dwarf? Do we as members of these organization have any obligation to report registered horses that are dwarfs? What obligations do the registries have to their members to investigate and revoke registrations on animals that are dwarfs or produce dwarfs?

Both registries have very clear rules about dwarves not being allowed registration papers. I would think with the photo requirements that many of them would be eliminated upon application. Yet,we all see them being used to reproduce and their offspring sent on to produce more. Do we just continue to turn a blind eye?

As I see it,

Ron

 

[Debby - LB]

Should AMHA and AMHR have a easy procedure to report animals being used for breeding that are dwarves or show characteristics of dwarfism? -No

Should owners be required to report any mare or stallion that produces a dwarf? -This would be nice if everyone kept accurate and truthful records of their breeding stock, but as far as the registries go there is no way to implement this.

 

[Becky]

Since there are no genetic tests available to determine whether a horse carries an inherited dwarf defect or not, then no, I do not think registries should do more than they are to disallow registration. To do more could surely involve legal ramifications for the registries.

 

[Minimor]

Should AMHA and AMHR have a easy procedure to report animals being used for breeding that are dwarves or show characteristics of dwarfism? I would have to say no to this question. What a mess and a lot of hard feelings there would be if people were encouraged to report dwarves or horses with dwarf characteristics that other people are using for breeding. Some people would have a heyday I imagine, and some would then retaliate by going looking for dwarfy horses that they could report.

Should owners be required to report any mare or stallion that produces a dwarf?I would have to say no again. For myself--if I had a dwarf foal born here, both sire and dam (assuming I owned both) would be removed from the breeding pool anyway so what's the point in being required to report it? Considering how many people are of the belief that it is okay to use dwarf producers for breeding so long as you don't breed them back to the same mate that produced the dwarf--I would say that you would NEVER get any such rule passed.

Do we as members of these organization have any obligation to report registered horses that are dwarfs? See my answer to the first question above.

What obligations do the registries have to their members to investigate and revoke registrations on animals that are dwarfs or produce dwarfs? I am not sure what the policy is if one of the registries learns of a dwarf that has registration papers--is there any provision for revoking papers? What would be the procedure for someone to protest this registration? I would think a formal protest would have to be filed before any action would be taken and I'm not sure there are any provisions in the rule books for someone to make such a protest and the procedure once the protest is filed? As for revoking registration on horses that produce dwarfs--there is no rule which specifies a horse will lose its papers in the event that it produces a dwarf--with no rule in place then the registries have no obligation at all to do anything about a dwarf producer.

 

[Riverrose28]

I can't speak for anyone else only on our awful, expensive experience. My husband bought an expensive colt that matured at 29 inches, we bred him to one of our older mares and she had a filly that was perfect. Then he bred her the next year to his favorite mare that had given us four beautiful fillies and she produced a dwarf. We had of course sent in the stallion report, but we did not register the filly as it was obvious she was a dwarf. Hubby gelded and sold the stallion at a lose. so now we have lost money on a small stallion and know that his favorite mare carries a dwarf gene so she can't be bred anymore, just kept as a pet. Plus we now have a dwarf that I refuse to sell as she needs special attention. LOts of lost money here! I do think that there should be something in place at the registries were you can report the birth of a dwarf, those horses should be culled, sold as pets, or at least be removed from the owners breeding program. Trouble is, and I've seen it many times, dwarves bring big money at auctions, so you can't stop greed. right now it is left up to us as breeders to be honest, and not to breed for this fault, but back in the day it was done all the time, just to scale down the size of the horse. It would be great if there was a test, and it was made manditory for all breeders, but that may happen in the future, now it all depends on honest breeders that want to only improve the breed, not make a fast buck.

 

[OutlawStyle]

Should AMHA and AMHR have a easy procedure to report animals being used for breeding that are dwarves or show characteristics of dwarfism? & Do we as members of these organization have any obligation to report registered horses that are dwarfs?

Absolutely not, I don't trust some people not to report others just to be mean. I could understand a mandatory test (if there ever will be one) and a positive horse not eligible for registry (or full papers like someone mentioned in another thread.) It wouldn't keep people from breeding them for unregistered babies, but it may help keep it out of our show horses? I'm not completely sure where I stand on this, I think there should be a lot more research on it first.

Should owners be required to report any mare or stallion that produces a dwarf?

It would be nice if they would.

What obligations do the registries have to their members to investigate and revoke registrations on animals that are dwarfs or produce dwarfs?

I recently realized I had very limited time to send in my favorite mares temporary papers and had no choice but to send in fuzzy pictures. I swear when she is fuzzy the hair is thicker then her body... she looks kinda dwarfy in the winter with all the fuzz, but is very correct under it all... so, no I don't think they should be able to revoke registrations unless maybe if they see the horse body clipped first?

 

[lil hoofbeats]

I do not believe there is any real way to monitor it. Even if they develop a test for it, it most likely will only be for certain types of dwarfs, not all, kinda like the sabino gene test. There a lot of sabino horses and the test only pics up one type.

In theory sounds like a great plan, but the reality is, its Just not feasible.

 

[Lizzie]

Unlike the Sabino gene, lil hoofbeats, where there are thought to possibly be dozens of different types, there really are relativly few known types of dwarfism. I have discussed this with people at Davis and they tell me while they have a test for one type of dwarfism, it is only available at the moment, for cattle. No test for other types and no plans to offer any to the horse world in the future. I suspect funding might have something to do with it.

Diane.

Much like the stallion owner who became angry because you brought up the fact his/her stallion was a dwarf carrier, I also had a similar happening. Years ago, I owned a famous dog. He finished his championship quickly and I bred him to my own bit ch. This was in the days when testing was in its infancy. Later I had him x-rayed and it showed he had something genetic and rather nasty. When I (very nicely) informed the owner of his sire and dam, it was received with much anger and furious letters sent around to other owners in the breed. I neutered my lovely boy. Luckily, none of the three puppies went to breeding homes. One went to my friend who used him in the movies and I kept the other two boys. All neutered. However, the breeder continued to breed his parents for several years and still is active in the breed today.

I find it so useless, to hide one's head in the sand, when dealing with things like this. In the end, it does nothing to further the breed, whether it be horses or dogs. One doesn't have to plaster it all over the net, but a quiet word in the ear of those who own dwarfs or dwarf carriers, should be met with at least a little dignity and be thankful for the information.

Lizzie

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I do not think this is implementable.

As has been said, people would report others to be mean, or because the registry asked them to.

Case in question: the foal someone asked about recently.

May or may not turn out to be a dwarf- does not matter as she has a caring and responsible owner who, were she to turn out to be a dwarf, would return her papers, BUT the breeder thought she was a dwarf so, in this scenario, the breeder would now go and, totally unnecessarily and more than possibly erroneously, "report" the owner. No, NO WAY!! Just not right. IMO.

As to the test, I am sure, once people actually care about this, (I am not talking about us, here, or the people on the Dwarf Forum, I am talking about the people that hold the reins) a test will come. The reason it is not being funded is obvious (to me) too many people scared a test might be "required" (As IF!!) and too many people worried that it could be found that they do, actually, have the dwarf gene in their valuable animals.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Should AMHA and AMHR have a easy procedure to report animals being used for breeding that are dwarves or show characteristics of dwarfism?

IF the reporting is done by the current owner I would say yes. I would love it if both registries kept a list of the known dwarf producing lines. Not a maybe or my opinion is yes/someone else's is no. But the actual irrefutable that's is a dwarf and these are the parents. That wouldn't even be a judgment call, just a fact that cross produced this. Again though you're facing a potential lawsuit even if you're in the right and report the mare you bought bred produced dwarf X from stallion Y. Stallion Y's owner may not be thrilled about that. They should be, but might disagree even with the evidence in front of them.

Should owners be required to report any mare or stallion that produces a dwarf?

They should but hard to regulate and I'd say there would be very few that did.

Do we as members of these organization have any obligation to report registered horses that are dwarfs?

With the ability to take bad photos that so many of us can and do take - I'd hate every photo shot from above or at a bad angle to be reported. In person evidence maybe. Legally all this would do would make lawyers happy.

What obligations do the registries have to their members to investigate and revoke registrations on animals that are dwarfs or produce dwarfs?

That's a hard one. Taking on the additional burden financially to inspect/investigate would be difficult to near impossible. That and many of the dwarves offered as micro-minis or the 'new' mini are not registered anyway.

Personally I've kept a list of lines that have produced dwarves over the years, big and small names/farms. There are certain lines I won't touch regardless, as it maybe not be a high dwarf producing line, but with the selection out there, why bother? There are others that 'should' have dwarfism in the line going back 5-7 generations, but have not produced/sired a dwarf. Do your research and ask questions is about the best any of us can do at this time.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

I do not think this is implementable.

As has been said, people would report others to be mean, or because the registry asked them to.

Case in question: the foal someone asked about recently.

May or may not turn out to be a dwarf- does not matter as she has a caring and responsible owner who, were she to turn out to be a dwarf, would return her papers, BUT the breeder thought she was a dwarf so, in this scenario, the breeder would now go and, totally unnecessarily and more than possibly erroneously, "report" the owner. No, NO WAY!! Just not right. IMO.

As to the test, I am sure, once people actually care about this, (I am not talking about us, here, or the people on the Dwarf Forum, I am talking about the people that hold the reins) a test will come. The reason it is not being funded is obvious (to me) too many people scared a test might be "required" (As IF!!) and too many people worried that it could be found that they do, actually, have the dwarf gene in their valuable animals.

I agree! I think the dwarf gene is in all miniature horse bloodlines. And lots of National Champions, Grand National Champions, and World Champions would be out of the breeding shed!

Lizzie, I think there are basically 2 types of dwarfs?? but what about the horses that to me look a little dwarfy, but are not true dwarfs?? like some with the extreme dishy heads but other wise perfect body??? Bad Bite, etc. just wondering if that test would pic up certain traits of dwarfism? I just do not know enough about it, do you have any links i could read about it? Thanks in advance.

 

[horsehug]

Lil hoofbeats,

The best place to read a lot of the info is on the Dwarf forum part of Lil Beginnings. Here is the link.

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showforum=15

John Eberth who has done a HUGE amount of research on this and is still working on getting his tests for the 5 different types ready for the public to use, answered many questions on this forum.

All of this takes lots and lots of time but it Is on the way. I have been waiting patiently as I want very much to have my herd tested. John and others also after their many years of breeding are quite sure that all miniature bloodlines have some dwarfism in them....... not all horses, but all bloodlines. There is so much speculation from people who are not expert, that I will be glad when we can finally test for it and find out scientifically which ones are carriers and which types they carry. On that forum he mentions the 4 types he knew existed at that point. And since then he discovered in the last couple of years another type. So there are at least 5.

Susan O.

 

[shelia]

Without a test there is no proof that a horse is a dwarf. It may look obvious, but if the owners says no, or says prove it, what are you going to do?

When the tests do come out maybe it will be a requirement to get them registered. To be fair it would have to be required on all or none.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

There are five types of equine dwarfism recognised at the moment but the fifth kind causes late (I think)term abortion, so is not viable.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Without a test there is no proof that a horse is a dwarf. It may look obvious, but if the owners says no, or says prove it, what are you going to do?

When the tests do come out maybe it will be a requirement to get them registered. To be fair it would have to be required on all or none.

When they start doing those test, it will be a hard day for the miniature horse, because the gene pool will go down to almost zero, and the only few that will be left, are the ones that were mis read as non carriers(because of human error) when in fact they actually are carriers.

Anyway i hope i am wrong on that one.

 

[shelia]

When they start doing those test, it will be a hard day for the miniature horse, because the gene pool will go down to almost zero, and the only few that will be left, are the ones that were mis read as non carriers(because of human error) when in fact they actually are carriers.

Anyway i hope i am wrong on that one.

I know what you are saying. When the tests do come out and people start testing on their own we can get a picture of just how bad it is. Until then we will just have to keep doing what we are doing. Either way it still can't stop people from breeding unregistered dwarves on purpose. We just have to try to educate as many people as we can about dwarf minis.

 

[Minimor]

I very much doubt that every Mini carries a dwarf gene. If that were the case I believe we would see a lot more dwarf foals born than what there are. If every horse carried 1 dwarf gene, that means that a certain number of foals would be born without any dwarf gene, simply because the law of averages says that in a certain percentage of cases the foal will inherit the non-dwarf gene from both parents...so that means that over the years there will have been quite a number of Minis that were born free of any dwarf gene.

 

[horsehug]

Minimor, I am sure that is correct also. I think some confusion comes about because sometimes people refer to "using dwarfs for breeding" when they are in fact just talking about breeding normal minis who are carriers of a recessive dwarf gene. But John has explained this with the Punette Square many times and you are correct that even when breeding a carrier to a carrier there is a 25% chance that the foal will not be a carrier at all. So there are for sure mnis out there that are not carriers.

Susan O.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

I very much doubt that every Mini carries a dwarf gene. If that were the case I believe we would see a lot more dwarf foals born than what there are. If every horse carried 1 dwarf gene, that means that a certain number of foals would be born without any dwarf gene, simply because the law of averages says that in a certain percentage of cases the foal will inherit the non-dwarf gene from both parents...so that means that over the years there will have been quite a number of Minis that were born free of any dwarf gene.

I hope you are right!!!!!!! and i am wrong!!!!!!!! lets keep our fingers crossed.

 

[Tab]

I wish there was a test available! Bring it on