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I only have splash overo miniatures right now in my breeding program. I do however know many breeders of standard size APHA paint horses and many of them breed frame to frame. I don't think they test for anything. People in my family have been breeding standard size paints for years crossing frame to frame and one person I know of has been doing it for 30+ years and only ever resulting in 2 leathal white foals. Some people are willing to take the risk some aren't it is really just a matter of opinion to the individual. I haven't been around many leathal white foals but the longest I have seen one live is alittle over 24 hours.

Josh
 
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Josh, the point is that, since we know that the only pattern that carries LWO is Frame, and you state that these breeders do not test, it is more than likely that the horses they say are Frame are, in fact Splash + Sabino!!

It is only by testing, as Minimule has proven, that you can be sure.

If you breed Pinto to Pinto without testing you are just being irresponsible, sorry.

Are you sure you have only Splash in your programme??

Have you tested them all for LWO?

Do you know for sure they have no Sabino, no Tobiano- not that either or these would be a problem.

My point is that there is NO test for Sabino, NO test for Splash, only a test for H/Z Tobiano, so it is not actually possible to say any more than, "My horses are all visual Splash, only.
 
If standing a stud that is LWO positive how do you handle it with mares coming in? A live foal guarantee is not much good if the mare turns out to be LWO pos and they haven't had her tested. You can't force them to test the mare beforehand.
Well, actually, there would be every reason to REQUIRE every outside mare to test LWO negative, if standing an LWO positive stallion at stud.

I've only tested one of my current breeding stallions for LWO and he's negative. I just yesterday pulled hair on another to test, but with his approx 10 foals and none showing any frame characteristics, it's doubtful that he's a carrier. My other stallion hasn't been tested, but with close to 40 foals on the ground and none have been LWO, it's doubtful that he is a carrier either. Therefore, I haven't tested most of my mares as these are the only stallions they are being bred to. NOw, some of these mares have produced frame foals when bred to frame. If I were going to be breeding to frame stallions now, I would have the mares tested.
 
I am now breeding for overo minis as Val is a splash but bred paint horses for several years before getting into minis. This was before testing and always did paint to paint breedings without crossing to quarter horses. In all that time I have only had one lethal white foal. Testing would be the optimum way to go as interbreeding the patterns, as they do in paints, will give you the positive solids. Since overo hasn't been bred as much as the paint industry has, and splash is far more prevalent in minis, it is easier to mix and match patterns without gatting into the lethal issue.
 
Just chipping in my 2c here. I have seen 6 lethal white foals, all of them full sized horses. I have been on the phone with several miniature horse owners about white foals.

2 of the foals were out of a paint mare one of my 4Her's owned--she bred to a well known stallion and suffered the devestating loss of her very first foal. This mare, while paint bred, had no body white--just socks, blaze, and blue eyes. The breeder had her bring the mare back for another breeding TO THE SAME STALLION. He told her since she had already had a lethal foal there was less than a 1% chance it would ever happen again. When I found out I was livid. Sure enough, the second foal was also lethal white. Bless her heart, Terran did a research project and presentation on LWO and presented it at several local clubs, then entered it and went all the way to State. She said no one should have to get their heart broken like hers.
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The key, as several of you have pointed out, is you CANNOT look at a horse and tell if it carries LWO. Plus, some "visual" overo's do NOT have LWO. In my experience, the mini overo breeders seem ahead of their full size counterparts on having a "clue". Those good ole boys--and girls--are very content for the most part to just play the odds. Arrrgggg!!

On the flip side, a little knowlege is dangerous--I know a couple of mini foals born all white that were destroyed because the owner or vet assumed they were lethal white. The parents in 2 cases had not been tested--had they been, they would of known the foal could NOT be a lethal white, just a maximum expression sabino. Equally heartbreaking and such a waste.
 
Years ago, before testing, and before there had been NEARLY as much discovered about the genetics of paint/pinto coloring, I bred my daughter's visible frame(I now suspect she was also sabino, and possibly, splash, as she had one blue eye, lots of 'laceyness' around the edging of her white, an apron face,etc.-we had shown to to become a PtHA Champion)-to a nice area stallion, belonging to an longtime acquaintance just down the road from me here, who appeared to be a tobiano(I did know one shouldn't breed what we then just called 'overo'-meaning frame-to 'overo'.) I then sent the mare down to an old friend in Socorro, where we had moved up here from, because she had fulltime pasture/turnout room. The mare foaled on Easter Sunday; I got a call from Pat saying she couldn't find any color on him...I drove down--had a lovely big colt, but no color. He seemed healthy and vigorous, nursing enthusiastically. However, he never passed any meconium. We watched him all day; by late afternoon, he was showing signs of noticable pain. The only local equine-capable vet lived just up the lane from Pat, actually came by about then(with info about the Girl Scout cookies one of her kids was selling, or some such thing-VERY fortuituous, as her-then husband was a nutcase who would literally threaten people with a gun if they came around when he 'thought' Terri shouldn't be 'bothered'-we wouldn't have DARED to call her, or go by her house/office, on that holiday day!)....anyway, we told her the situation, and requested she come back and euthanize the colt-which she did. We left him with the mare, in Pat's round pen, overnight-I stayed overnight, too, and Terri(the vet)came back the next AM and did a necropsy. Sure enough, his digestive system ended in a little thin 'channel' about the size of a soda straw-NO WAY would anything ever have passed through it. These were full-sized, registered Pinto/Paint horses. The sire was in truth a tovero, but basically, looked tobiano-in fact, he sired a second lethal white that same year! The stallion's owner NEVER acknowledged that, ever, nor offered any recompense of any sort(of course, I wouldn't have rebred the mare to him!!) It was a heartrending experience, for sure-one I would never wish to have to repeat!

I don't have much contact with the Paint horse community nowadays, even though I still own an APHA mare for riding-if you don't show, the club isn't very interested in you-and I haven't shown the 'bigs' since 'peanut rolling' and other noxious practices got well-established...but I do think it is probably correct to say that many, if not most ,aren't 'into' the genetic testing they SHOULD be doing to prevent such sad occurances. I know I WOULD be so doing, were I still breeding!!
 

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