Gathering information- why have

[hobbyhorse23]

I hate to be the one to bring this up as I know the subject arouses strong feelings, but I really am curious and with Convention being held here in the NW this year have a rare opportunity to attend and champion a possible rule change proposal in person. Can those of you who have been there in the past tell me why, specifically, people have voted against proposals involving making checks optional in AMHR driving classes?

I don't want to start any arguments either for or against, I just want to know what reasons were given at the time. I have not been there and would like to better understand what the reasoning is. Thank you!

Sincerely,

Leia Gibson

Snohomish, WA

Edited to add: Moderators, please leave this topic on the main forum. Most the people who post about rule change proposals as they happen are here rather than on the Driving forum.

 

[kaykay]

Well shoot I will go ahead and get this party started lol. I did not vote because you could only pick one.

This is not my opinion but what I have been told

We have many green drivers that show AMHR and many feel it would be too dangerous to let some drive without the horse being checked.

If you submit a rule proposal you really need to be there or be available via phone. If you are not, and people have questions, or something is not clear -- it will not pass.

I believe proposals have to be in by July?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Thank you, KayKay! That is exactly what I was looking for. I do plan to be there and the July deadline was what made me finally bring up the topic.

I thought I set up the poll to allow more than one selection, I'll have to check.

Leia

 

[AnnaC]

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but could someone tell me exactly why a check of any sort is needed? I know that there are many different styles and classes in driving, but there are also lots of different types of horses being driven. Surely if the horse has the correct conformation etc for a particular class in driving, then fitness, time, maturity and correct training should produce the self carriage needed for that class?

Not trying to start an arguement, but would appreciate a clear unbiased explanation.

Anna

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I would love to have a sensible answer to that one, too, Anna.

The rest of the world can drive, in perfect safety, without a checkrein of any kind- in fact it is actually banned in most BDA classes, and only allowed in private driving if the horse is a Hackney .

Surely the American horses cannot be that dangerous??

 

[kaykay]

Lei be sure you write very clearly and list consequences. This is a major issue with our rulebook now is too many rules but no consequence if you are caught breaking the rule. That clearly makes no sense. I know the rulebook committee is going over the entire rulebook to fix a lot of things.

Be sure to pass it by several people before you submit it to get fresh eyes on what you write. I know last year there were some really poorly written submittals that had no chance of passing just because of how they were written.

Anna I have seen the difference a checked horse makes (correctly checked) it can make a big difference in the way of going.

I have also seen many green drivers that were in no way ready to drive in a class with other drivers and it is scarey. A horse that is not checked can get their head and run off much easier than a checked horse.

I have seen many driving accidents over the years and its scary

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Possibly we are just not used to the idea of using something as potentially dangerous to the horses mouth and comfort as a training aid?

Honestly, if they are that green why are they in the show ring?

The checkrein was never intended, and never devised, to alter the horses head carriage or prevent it putting it's head down to the point where it can run away (and if it is correctly schooled it will not do this anyway)it was devised merely to prevent a draught horse putting it's rein over the shaft, or more usually to prevent a horse in harness putting it's head down to rub on it's knee and getting the rein caught on the harness on the way down, that is all it is intended to be used for.

ALL the other uses came later.

I think all the BOD should be sent a copy of Black Beauty to read, myself!

This is just like the use of the cavesson to stop a horse opening it's mouth- NOT what it was intended to do.

Again, I say, if the rest of the world can manage.......

 

[Minimor]

Now, it makes no difference to me if a check is or isn't required. As long as the check is required any horse I drive in the show ring will be loosely checked--just because the rule is there doesn't mean I have to do the check up tight like "everyone else" and I don't honestly care what "everyone else" is doing.

Seriously Jane, there's a far cry between Black Beauty being checked up while having to pull a heavy load up a hill and a horse, even a mini, in the show ring pulling a little two wheel cart and a single driver.

Personally I don't think you will ever get enough people to vote in favor of abolishing the check rule. It's tradition. Many people LIKE the way the horses are shown now--the check helps to attain the headset people like, it helps get the all-up-front-nothing-behind way of going that show people want to see.

Even if the check rule were abolished, I believe you'll see little difference in the way of going of the winning show horses. People will still use a check for training. This way of going will be so ingrained in training that the horses will tend to go the same way in the show ring. If anyone is wanting a rule change so that their own 'proper' driving horses will have a fair shot in the breed ring...I don't think it will make a lot of difference.

 

[Kendra]

I would be careful to avoid the "checks are evil and we need to eliminate them" argument. I think the way to go is the "look at the huge number of carriage driving Miniature Horses there are in our area and if they could come and show at a breed show without any change to their equipment we could make more money" argument.

I can't believe that 'safety' is still the fall back response from the registries. Perhaps a document citing the rules that Jane talked about that are in place in other parts of the world? And quotes from reputable driving experts/books?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Be sure to pass it by several people before you submit it to get fresh eyes on what you write. I know last year there were some really poorly written submittals that had no chance of passing just because of how they were written.

Absolutely, that has been a concern of mine too (that proposals are being hindered by the writing.)

Leia be sure you write very clearly and list consequences. This is a major issue with our rulebook now is too many rules but no consequence if you are caught breaking the rule.

A good thought, although thankfully I don't think there would need to be any consequences for simply making a piece of equipment optional. My goal would be to have the check listed as martingales currently are- as something that is perhaps normal but not required for every horse. I'm well aware, as Minimor said, that most people will continue to use them and that the judges will probably be just as confused and concerned by a horse not wearing one as by a horse wearing breeching. But it would be nice to have the option!

Anna I have seen the difference a checked horse makes (correctly checked) it can make a big difference in the way of going.

Yes, it certainly can. For better or worse!

I've seen quite a few poorly conformed minis that were checked up beyond their comfort level and as a consequence had major back problems. Still, while I would love to have checks outlawed for the same reasons our neighbors across the pond detest them, I know darn well you can't mandate common sense by taking issue with a particular gadget. People are going to continue to do what works and what wins whether that's checks or close clipping or tying a QH's head down or beating a halter Arabian and I'm not going to fight that battle!

Checks CAN be properly used to help a horse learn what you're looking for and I honestly don't mind the darn things when used with consideration for the animal. I just want the option to take it off my finished driving horse if he doesn't need it and it's so loose it's flapping around.

I have also seen many green drivers that were in no way ready to drive in a class with other drivers and it is scarey. A horse that is not checked can get their head and run off much easier than a checked horse.

That green driver thing is scary.

I've seen plenty of runaways with checks on and it never seems to make any difference. They just put their noses in the air and run blind! Still...behaving myself and not arguing the check issue itself here.

Thanks for sharing the viewpoint!

Personally I don't think you will ever get enough people to vote in favor of abolishing the check rule. It's tradition. Many people LIKE the way the horses are shown now--the check helps to attain the headset people like, it helps get the all-up-front-nothing-behind way of going that show people want to see.
Even if the check rule were abolished, I believe you'll see little difference in the way of going of the winning show horses. People will still use a check for training. This way of going will be so ingrained in training that the horses will tend to go the same way in the show ring. If anyone is wanting a rule change so that their own 'proper' driving horses will have a fair shot in the breed ring...I don't think it will make a lot of difference.

I agree with you, Minimor. My only interest at this point is seeing it made optional as it is in the Pinto shows and so many others. Thank you for your input!

What else have you guys heard as reasons for checks being mandatory?

Leia

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I would be careful to avoid the "checks are evil and we need to eliminate them" argument. I think the way to go is the "look at the huge number of carriage driving Miniature Horses there are in our area and if they could come and show at a breed show without any change to their equipment we could make more money" argument.

Exactly, Kendra! With so many carriage drivers in the Pacific NW who also show R, I was hoping maybe we could get enough people of that opinion to actually have a chance for once.

I can't believe that 'safety' is still the fall back response from the registries. Perhaps a document citing the rules that Jane talked about that are in place in other parts of the world? And quotes from reputable driving experts/books?

That would be a good place to start.

Leia

Edited to add: BTW, anyone who would prefer to message me privately can email me at hobbyhorse23 at gmail dot com! I forgot to mention that but I know my PM box here is full.

 

[Mominis]

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but could someone tell me exactly why a check of any sort is needed? I know that there are many different styles and classes in driving, but there are also lots of different types of horses being driven. Surely if the horse has the correct conformation etc for a particular class in driving, then fitness, time, maturity and correct training should produce the self carriage needed for that class?

Not trying to start an arguement, but would appreciate a clear unbiased explanation.

Anna

Leai and I have had this discussion before. lol I feel that a check is a safety device and, when used intelligently, does not interfere with the horse. My theory is that an unchecked horse is more easily able to get a rein under a shaft or get saught up in the shafts. With a light check, this problem is prevented. But, please, notice I said intelligent checking.

 

[leeapachemoon]

I have limited knowledge of this proposal but I think you could use ADS as a good example of a club or organization that does not require/allow a check.

 

Honestly, it is one of the reasons I have not shown AMHR. So I think you would be right by saying they would make more money by making this optional. It would apeal to all the people that have been driving in ADS shows.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Leia and I have had this discussion before. lol I feel that a check is a safety device ... My theory is that an unchecked horse is more easily able to get a rein under a shaft or get caught up in the shafts. With a light check, this problem is prevented.

And I'd agree with you that that is a valid use for a check...if it worked with my mini! LOL. The use of neck terrets has successfully prevented that problem for me but my reins got caught constantly before that regardless of whether I had a check or not. Why? Because my mini naturally carries his head (or his mouth at least) at about the height of the point of his shoulder. To keep his head above the level of the shafts I'd have to use an overcheck and check him so tight he'd probably rear and flip over, which does NOT seem safe to me.

All I'm saying is one answer does not fit all, so why mandate the same "safety" thing for each horse? For some it's just one more strap to get caught.

Besides, it seems to me they're only in danger of getting a rein caught when standing still and even the high-action horses are usually unchecked in the lineup.

Leia

 

[AnnaC]

Can I just add (nothing to do with to check or not to check) that whatever proposals you do eventually put forward Leia, you are the right person to do it. Your posts/writings here on LB are always well put together, to the point and very articulate.

I have every confidence that you will be successful in getting discussions, clarification and results from your written proposals.

Anna

 

[Sandee]

I only have one comment to make and that is - If you don't have judges that agree with you or that at least support your view, then a rule to allow the choice of using a check or not is worthless. I mean if the judges continue to pick those with checks ( and often it appears that the higher the horse is checked the better), then who will want to drive without one?

 

[targetsmom]

FYI, straight from an old (I don't think it has changed) Pinto Association Rule Book:

In section on equipment:

"Overcheck or side checks permitted at the option of exhibitors."

 

[kaykay]

Why are green drivers allowed to show? Because how can you say they cannot? They can be excused from the ring if they are hazordous but unfortunately by the time someone sees that, the wreck or runaway has already occurred.

And I guess everyone was a green driver at some point.

Gosh I have seen so many incorrectly harnessed minis at shows that I cant even count them anymore. Friends will tell you all that I always step in and ask if I can help show them how to properly harness and hook. Sometimes I am greeted with screaming over it and many times I get a thanks. But it is a huge issue.

I do not drive but have helped people and watched driving classes for years. For those who have never seen driving accidents it can be hard to imagine how bad they are.

The one at Congress 09 was horrible.

Lei I didnt realize you are just wanting to make it optional. That makes a difference!

I say go for it. If you are passionate about it and willing to spend the time on it -- then do it!

Kay

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

i would never drive without a check. IMO, its dangerous to drive without one. There are so many bad things that can happen, especially if your driving a team without checkreins. i've seen what can happen and i never want that to happen to me. to each their own, i suppose.

 

[Kendra]

i would never drive without a check. IMO, its dangerous to drive without one. There are so many bad things that can happen, especially if your driving a team without checkreins. i've seen what can happen and i never want that to happen to me. to each their own, i suppose.

I disagree, but that's exactly why I believe the rule needs to be changed to make it optional. Everyone should be able to make the decision that's right for them and their horse.