Geldings..... why arent they around for sale?

[Ferrah]

I love geldings.

I took the time to read all the posts and there isn't much left to say. I wish more people in in our area would geld their colts. Even most of their stallions should, IMHO be gelded.

I gelded Spyder and Cinnabar because I knew I if I wanted a horse a could show, drive and love on without any worries, they would both have to be geldings, plain and simple. When I worked at the Quarter Horse farm for 8 years they gelded a lot of truly amazing colts, they could actually sell these amazing colts for more money as geldings, than they could as colts. I think if the Miniature Horse industry was more like that, the whole breed would benefit. The problem is getting there.

I live in a town..well city, there is 81,000 people, where most people don't even know that Miniature Horses exists. Even the people who own Miniature Horses more often than not do not give their Miniature Horses, stallions or not the respect they deserve. Most of them own Miniature Horses just to have a fancy pet. I have seen the Miniature Horses these people own be more unruly and terrible acting than any big horse I have ever seen. The horse people in our city who do know about Miniature Horses avoid them like the plague because of the bad reputation some of the owners have given the breed.

I have gone way off topic now...but the bottom line is I wish more people would geld. If everyone started doing it, maybe we could start a trend.

 

[ponyboi09]

ok, here is my question on this, and it is just a honest question from a fueture breeder,

Do you think the colts that are produced would be better advertised to the pubil as geldings, because i have no problem with gelding them if that is what will get them to a good new home, but i also dont want it to turn ppl off...and when they are that young (which i know you cant geld when they are too young) but how can you tell or decide who should be kept for possible breeding and who would make a good gelding.... just a question. I mean i have seen PLENTY of BEAUTIFUL geldings that would have been much better stallions than some of the ones who are kept for breeding purposes... i just would hate to make the descision like that for a horse that i dont plan on owning for ever....im not trying to step on anyone's toes or anything like that but i just thought i would ask because in a couple of years i too will be in the position of making descions and, i hate to say this but i didnt read everyone's post so someone might have already answered it. Just thought i would ask. :bgrin

Will

P.S. I do own two geldings that would have made GREAT little studs but we wanted to show and for our purposes geldings just seemed like an easier choice for showing.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

The question is why aren't they around for sale (Geldings)?

Gelding is a great option, but I'm not quick to geld. Do we geld, yes. Do I sell colts intact yes. Personally, I won't be rushed into the 'geld them all' group. Too me, if someone wants a great gelding - buy a colt and geld him if you can't find the right one! There are some fantastic deals on colts in certain areas of the country. I could buy, ship and geld a colt from parts of the USA, cheaper than to find a good gelding out here.

I take every horse's welfare that I have or that I've brought into the world in our breeding program very seriously. And I do my best to act responsibly. The colts I sell intact I try to educate newbie buyers about breeding (I don't sell wonky ones for breeding!), conformation, body type, temperament, etc., along with the good/bad about foaling, etc., also what to look for in a mare. Last year I sold a couple of colts that were (IMHO) quarter horse in build/head - conformationally sound, but not going to win in todays show ring. Does that mean they shouldn't be bred? They're are a large group of people out there that like that look, and that is what they find pleasing in a mini. They don't like the look of a shetland nor of an arab, does that make them wrong? Now I don't chose to breed that, and I explain that to a buyer, but it's what some of them like and want! So do I sell them a well bred, double registered, sound colt, or say "No! He needs to be gelded, as he's not competitive in the show ring!" So, they go elsewhere and buy perhaps one that isn't as good of quality?

We keep a large percentage of our colts/stallions (we have 19 right now from the sucklings to a retired stallion at 21) and watch them, some for a few months some for a few years. I have sold colts for less than $1000 (to the right home) and for many times that to other breeders (average is $1500-2500) and I don't feel that is giving them away. In all cases it's more than I charge for stud service!

We've been trying to schedule a gelding party for over a month, (crossing fingers April 20th is clear and dry), if the bloody rain stops! Will any be for sale - maybe one. We're gelding two that are lifers here (one is really nice but he's a pet, and the other I don't find pleasing to the eye for breeding), a third will be my daughter's show gelding, and have a fourth slot scheduled, for as yet to be named colt! I'm going to look at them again and again, and again if necessary over the next few days before I decide, both colts have their merits and both have flaws that I'm considering for the fourth gelding slot.

As for gelding the son that is better than it's sire - I'd hate to think what would have happened to the Orion line, Rowy, Buckeroo and the rest with that thought! If any of those guys had been gelded after the first son that was able to go toe to toe with Dad - well there are alot of half and full siblings that wouldn't have been born!

The points about gelding that everyone makes are valid, but unfortunately the people that would benefit most from this debate aren't on the forum. Most of the people on the Forum are here to learn with the goal of giving the best care to their minis. The people breeding the mud bottom (forget the term) horses aren't reading this, and wouldn't care if they did! They have a mare and stallion and are going to breed them regardless.

I'd really like to see alot of the people that are all pro gelding put their money were their mouths are and support the gelding incentive programs at the local, regional and national level. I've never shown a gelding, but we've supported the gelding incentive program for a few years now, as I do believe in it. If you're club doesn't have one start one! If every member gave $5.00 to their club they'd have a good pool of money for gelding incentives!

 

[backwoodsnanny]

AMEN to what Michelle had to say.

 

[Robin1]

I have gelded some stunning stud colts. My mother still doesn't completely get it. She always wants to find a good show/breeding home for the really nice guys. However, there are several children out there that have a really nice show quality gelding because I will geld my boys.

In 13 yrs. There have only been 2 stud colts that sold in tact. Everybody else has been gelded, including my original stallion.

Robin

 

[minisch]

NO we haven't beaten this subject to death! Someone mentioned it being a breeders EGO thing.... You betcha! In the AQHA only 3% of all male horses are stallions. One of my customers is a horse dealer, he goes to the auctions weekly, he tells me more and more minis are going thru the auction every day. And where do you think most of these auction minis are going..... you guessed it :no: I could go on a rant here, but alot of you ought to seriously look at what your breeding. flame away :bgrin

 

[WeeOkie]

Lyn,

I am in charge of the Gelding Incentive Committee (new this year because I brought it up) for our club. I sure wish we could find a way to get more people interested in geldings.

I have 6 and yes they are all for sale. :bgrin

Rita

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

NO we haven't beaten this subject to death! Someone mentioned it being a breeders EGO thing.... You betcha! In the AQHA only 3% of all male horses are stallions. One of my customers is a horse dealer, he goes to the auctions weekly, he tells me more and more minis are going thru the auction every day. And where do you think most of these auction minis are going..... you guessed it :no: I could go on a rant here, but alot of you ought to seriously look at what your breeding. flame away :bgrin

I totally agree with you and for this reason have DRASTICALLY cut down on the breeding I am doing at my own farm.

We have to come up with something for these horses to do instead of bottom line being bred to be bred

Of course not every horse in fact very few compared to how many are born are going to go on to become National show horses or Top breeding quality the key is to find or MAKE a market for them with something to do besides breed.

Ego is a huge part of it and has applied to myself as well - no one wants to see or cant even see that not every horse they are producing is top quality instead we try and defend why it it

 

[user 488]

NO we haven't beaten this subject to death! Someone mentioned it being a breeders EGO thing.... You betcha! In the AQHA only 3% of all male horses are stallions. One of my customers is a horse dealer, he goes to the auctions weekly, he tells me more and more minis are going thru the auction every day. And where do you think most of these auction minis are going..... you guessed it :no: I could go on a rant here, but alot of you ought to seriously look at what your breeding. flame away :bgrin

I totally agree with you. I am not exactly sure where I wanted to post this either as there are a few threads where it could be applicable.........so............Consider this................

1. How can people seriously look at what they are breeding when they don't know what they are looking at to begin with? Why are breeders asking about what proper conformation is? If they are breeding they should know what proper conformation is.

2. Through all these threads I have seen a typical response of keeping a colt a stallion because he is better than the sire and dam! Well, has anyone considered that the sire of dams might be less than average individuals? A colt should only be kept a stallion when he is comparable to the BEST IN THE INDUSTRY.

(Of course every mini breeder thinks their colts are the best. )

3. If people are going to geld horses you have got to give them a reason to geld horses. Every other breed has MAJOR gelding incentives! Who is going to stand up and do something about creating these incentives?

It doesn't take much money................QUIT talking and do something! If you all just sit around talking about gelding nothing will ever change.

4. If you are too cheap, or can't afford to geld.......no matter what the cost than you have no business breeding to begin with. Talking about how gelding a colt is so expensive is just a bogus excuse. The solution to that is just not breed!!!!!!! Or cut down drastically. This is not rocket science!!!!!!!!!

5. You have to understand that even when you breed a National Champion to a National Champion you still get pet quality horses from the cross. So how do people expect to produce something of value from nothing? Just how do you see the market flourishing when it is overun with poor quality (below pet) and pet quality horses?

Unfortunately, because MINIS are in that "inbetween" place where kitties and doggies fall.......we get the folks who want to have a baby for the sake of having a baby!

And this is probably the biggest reason why the Industry is suffering. And unfortunately there is no end to it.

As long as you have this puppy, kitten mentality things will never change. I have seen some better breeders on this Forum making big changes and not breeding everything......every year.

Unfortunately it's the others that keep plugging away.

And edited to say......GOOD FOR YOU, RITA........atleast you are trying to do something!

 

[Littleum]

I love you, Carol. :lol:

 

[midnight star stables]

I agree with everything said, but MHO is... If you want a gelding, make one. Kind of like Will said, Someone's dream stallion might just be the colt someone gelded! I just bought Nitro... why? I don't need another stallion, nor was he the best quality, but I wanted a gelding, and he fit my criteria. His last owner, liked him a lot as a stallion, I do not think she was wrong, nor do I not dough he was a good stallion, but I think he is making a great gelding. :aktion033: So, I guess I say, unless you want 'him' as a gelding (or if he really is not quality) then why bother gelding? Someone may want him as a stud; that said, someone may want him as a gelding.

I, my self, would find it hard to geld a loud overo, and that is why I couldn't even think of buying one with the thought of gelding

:

 

[Jill]

As Marty posted -- unless the colt is BETTER than his sire -- GELD. I agree!

Well, keep in mind how high is that bar really???

There are A LOT of poor quality stallions reproducing so I feel being better than the sire is not really a high enough measure in most cases.

It needs to be top show material now for me before it's worth the "trouble" of having him stay a stallion and quality is only one of the criteria for deciding.

There are now more and more geldings out there that are better than many breeding stallions, and not just by a little.

 

[nootka]

hard to geld a loud overo

Not picking on anyone in particular, but this attitude (been guilty of it myself...) is hard to defeat.

I would have to say in this area, there are some LOUD appaloosas I see from time to time, but wow...they have a LOT to overcome in the conformation dept. and I'm not just talking about subjective things like "type" but HUGE heads, thick, upside down necks, poor legs, etc. but for some reason, the people that have these horses are SO TIED UP IN COLOR (this breeder mainly breeds for color, self-admitted, and the care is very lacking in that dept.) that they overlook type completely. Truly the extreme other end of the scale. I think this person MAY in fact have one or two geldings around, only because they came in with a group of other horses they badly wanted.

They breed for Champagne, for pinto/overo, for appaloosa, etc., but wow...to go to their place is a nightmare. A beautiful, bay appaloosa blanket mare w/the most beautiful color variation in her freckling within the blanket, neat face marking, but she was the most strangely deformed dwarf I'd ever seen. She looked as if she were a rectangle on legs about six inches tall even though her body were that of a 38" horse. Her neck was quite short, but her head was pretty pleasant for a dwarf, and she was nursing a loudly marked dwarf foal. *sigh*

There ARE some wonderful examples of color (I know, I see them posted on this board), motion, etc. out there that it isn't necessary to breed truly inferior individuals. When it comes down to it, one stallion can service many mares.

I think what tends to defeat this "marketing" issue (selling geldings) is that everyone wants THEIR OWN stallion (I know, I thought I needed one, too, but I don't, with two mares), and maybe more than one, more than two or three. Who wants to breed to a stallion when they can keep theirs so easily.

So to know that there will be more buyers for an intact colt (and that decision to geld can easily be made as has been pointed out) is to keep someone from gelding and selling. I happen to know I could sell Kyan fairly easily at a lower price for an intact colt than I will for his gelding price (and I am paying for the gelding procedure, routine or surgical, but surgical should not be necessary). Not going to stop me, though.

Another point is the ability to pay. Not saying people have to be rich, but if they're constantly trying to get things cheap, as has been mentioned, the purchase price is usually not the biggest part of the investment in the animal, it is the routine care, the vet bills, etc.

Too many people look at it as saving money to buy one colt for the price of one stud fee to one stallion they might use.

I try to spread it out, look at it say I was willing to pay $750 or $1500 per breeding, and I have two mares per year, if I go out three years, that puts me at a pretty hefty price for a nice breeding stallion and I'm only getting ONE. If I don't keep one, I can shop around and try out different guys.

I know I"m wandering off topic, but I feel it all plays a part. I think color should play a very small part in the decision of whether or not to geld, unless it were something truly rare (such as a new variation).

Liz M.