Good books? Trainig resources?

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

I have broken a lot of big colts to ride, and my "trusty rusty" big mare to drive, however after 3 shoulder surgeries and a cow kick to the face (I'm only 20...) i decided to switch ot minis. I have no ide ahow to train my stallion to steer without sitting on him, which is far from possible to do. I have never had to train a horse to steer w a bit without using my legs, and dang is it hard to do with just the reins on the harness! Do any of you hae any recommendaitons on good books to buy or advice? Thank you!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Goodness- normally you teach a riding horse how to steer from the ground too! It's much less confusing for them that way. All you're really doing is teaching them to yield to pressure. They should already know how to do that from being led so you move from getting the horse to yield to pressure on the lead to each side to doing so off the bit. Simple! Teach them to yield left, then right, then to both reins at once. Holding both a little longer should produce movement backwards. Add a go forward cue and a stop and you've got all the basics.

It sounds like you're new to driving as well as some of the finer points of training to ride so I'd suggest you get some lessons with an experienced trainer so you can feel what it's like with a horse who knows what they are doing. In addition, you might start by reading Heike Bean's book, "Carriage Driving: A Logical Approach Through Dressage Training." That book covers everything from basics on the ground with a baby through the equipment, how to harness and hitch, and details of how to train for pleasure and competition.

Also, have you considered that a good stallion makes a great gelding? You're less likely to get hurt if you focus more on "training" and less on "breaking."

Welcome to Lil' Beginnings.

Leia

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

Big problem though - gelding dont make money. I don't keep horses unless they do that. His pedigree is FANTASTIC, and so is his temperment, no reason not to breed him. I have re-habbed too many rescues to count, and my first horse i broke is now going on to be nationally rankked appy. I think i got how to break a horse down

He flexes his head well to the bit, and yielding to pressure is coming along very nicely. However, to get a proper bend, i cannot do it with simply the bit. I have always taught horses to go solely off my seat, because it looks nicer in the show ring than the person using their hands to say everything. He curves his head beautifully to the side when i ask him to turn, but continues to go forward. I don't approve of "just yanking harder." When supported with the whip however, he loses the bend, and becomes more focused on turning around to see the whip, i believe he goes sideways on the ground off or more my body cues than the whip and the pressure itself. How do i fix that?

 

[brasstackminis]

I had a similar problem too with the driving. It is hard at first to figure out what to do in place of your seat and legs.

The thing to know is that your whip takes the place of your legs. I am a little confused on how you are using your whip and reins. When I am teaching my greenies to steer, I use my whip like my outside leg in the bend if I need him to come around more, or as my inside leg if I am trying to keep him from "falling in" but the fact of the matter is, you have to use your reins and voice a lot more than when riding...what ridden background did you come from? English, Western, H/J, Dressage? If you rode Western, life will be tricky until you can master contact. H/J not as bad, but Dressage background is the most helpful. You will also use a lot more voice than you may be used to if you rode Dressage. They never let you make noise in ridden Dressage, but you can talk to your horse in driving.

I am also curious if your horse is being driven in an open bridle or one with the blinkers/winkers. Not that you cannot ground drive in an open bridle...I have, but the blinkers have their place for helping focus on certian students. Also I would wonder if you were standing with a halter and your whip, does your guy understand that he is to move away from your whip (leg)? When you are just starting the ground driving, it helps to run the reins through the shaft loops until he gets it. (I should have read the book first!

) You can move into the terrets on the saddle later. It helps with the spinning-around-to-find-that-voice-back-there move. If you cannot find a good driving instructor, a Dressage (ridden) is a good alternative if you are having contact issues.

<----me getting on my sopabox are you ready?

As for the gelding situation...if your guy is registered, did you know that there are lots of incentive programs for the geldings? Kids get scholorship money for geldings, not stallions. Besides, you did not buy him to make money did you?

You seldom make money with horses! There are so many nice foals and horses out there right now...the economy and droughts are forcing herd dispersal sales and super nice horses with show records are selling for hundreds...not thousands. I have had, and still have a stallion. I get the thoughts about keeping them intact. I guess it just depends on how reliable you want your guy to be. (You did say you were trying to getting away from injuries by getting into minis)

My first horse vet told me this when I was thinking of keeping my first horse a stallion (My dad wanted me to so I could make money because he had awesome papers...he was a Peruvian Paso

) "A stallion loves a mare, a mare loves a baby, but the gelding loves you." I ignored him until my sweet yearling watched a mare get teased across from him and he changed overnight.

I wanted my sweet baby back so I had him gelded.

Removing that second brain just simplifies life so much. In the end it is up to you, but I know of very few people who don't own their own stallion, so there is really not a lot of money to be made with them. Most of my friends "share" their stallions and so there is no stud fee paid. Ask around and check out your local market. You may be suprised to find that the benefits of stallion ownership may not be as great as you had hoped.

Not trying to burst your bubble...just been there and done that already.

Leia is right when she says a good stallion makes a great gelding. Think of it like this...if he IS that awesome, and you cut him, you will be competing in the classes with many "culls" since everyone seems terrified to cut any mini stallion, but especially a nice one, so your awesome gelding will outshine them all.

Just a thought...coming from someone who has given away Buckaroo grandson (stallion) and foals from World titled stallions because they just aren't selling right now.

I don't imagine that you would be keeping him intact if he was 17 hh...papers or not! Just sayin...IMHO

 

[hobbyhorse23]

"How do you make a small fortune with horses? Start with a large one." Stallions don't make money in this economy either and there are way too many sweet, fancy-bred miniatures out there in those same rescues you've worked with for it to be a good idea to indiscriminately breed more. Still, I'm taking the time to post because I want to help so let's address your specific questions.

Driving is very different from most classical schools of riding as you have no choice but to work them almost solely off your hands. It's a hard adjustment for many riders to make, including me! It doesn't feel normal to be riding their mouths all the time but that's your only means of contact with a driving horse and is what you must use to form the bend. Long story short, if he's curving his head to the side but continuing to go forward you need to pick up more contact on the outside rein to prevent him from falling out through his shoulder. That's where your "gas pedal" cue is important because at first he will be confused by pressure on both reins and will want to stop. You have to teach him to go forward into your hand and allow that outside rein to control the bend of his body. You can encourage this response by giving him a release when he moves up and steps into your contact- if you take two units of pressure, give him one back (without dumping him) when he gives his nose. That and a lot of verbal praise will teach him what you're looking for.

The tradition in carriage driving is that the inside rein creates the bend and the outside rein controls the size of the circle. You use half-halts on the inside to set up the curve through his body then how much you give the outside rein determines if the horse abruptly swings inward, stays on a nice big curve or even spirals out. Your voice and your whip encourage him to go forward and a nice touch on his inside ribcage with the whip will remind him to bend if he begins to stiffen or show resistance through the body. Almost all support along the outside of the body is given through the rein. I will use the whip on the outside hip during a sharp pivot or if the green horse is lagging back and getting "stuck" in the shafts but it's not encouraged driving practice and it's better if you can use your voice to get the same "go forward" response.

I agree with BrassTack that you also need to spend a little time specifically teaching this boy what you want when you touch him with the whip and that driving him in blinders will help him to focus on your whip and rein cues rather than body language. He's doing his best to please you, you need to make it as easy as possible for him to understand what you want.

Leia

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

He is staying intact. 100% of my income comes from production animal Ag, and he needs to help w that, he is registered, and a FWF little Wardance son out of a mare who has produced many many champions. He is homozygous for creme, tobiano, and roan. He has a FANTASTIC tempermant. In his last home, and 8 yr old would wait for him to "finish": with a mare, grab him by the halter, lead him around, and sit on him bareback while he was "just chillin" in prescence of mares with heat - not once having a scary experience. If he was 17hh he would be a stud. I understand minis ARE horses! He is treated like one! One of his daughters has gone on to become a therapy horse even, and tbh, i hate working with geldings. That being said, Im not the naive stallion owner who thinks he will never do anything bad ever ever ever. If he acts like a jerk face or doesn't do well in hsows, i will consider it 1000%. I also have an AAS in Ag Business, and working on a BT in Dairy Production w/ a repro focus, and another AAS in Equine Repro. Asking if i should geld him or not is not even a question. I may be young, but this isn't my first rodeo. Him being aggressive realy isnt a worry.

I have a heavy dressage background, i was beginning 3rd level when a fluke accident (mare tripped on her own feet due to a crappy farrier making her feet 1/2" uneven and fell at a trot on a loose rein while i was an equitation model for a w/t lesson

) stopped both of us from riding. I will try putting the reins through the shaft loops. He is in blinkers, and a full harness, and he does get it when i have him in a halter i think. Im not sure if he's just picking up on my subtle cues from my body language. I do use cues to move forward and whoa which is coming along very very nicely, is "gee" and "haw" used to tell them to turn l and r as much now? I've never seen a driving hors ein the show ring use it. Thank you for your input!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

"Gee" and "haw" are draft driving terms and aren't generally used in carriage driving. Most drivers say something like "Come left" and "get right" or whatever comes easiest off their tongues if they need the horse to make a sharper turn. Regular turns like through an arena corner are done off the reins and shouldn't require a voice command.

Leia

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

Thats what I thought. I work for a man who has a 1200 cow dairy as well as a halfinger breeding farm. He does carriage driving as well, and i never saw him use the words inside the arean. However, i do not want to be limited to in the arena. I am going to try putting the halter on over the bridle, and running the reins through that to the bit. It will pull his ENTIRE head a little more to the side, and hopefully won't ruin his fantastically fluid bend. im considering having someone lead him, and before we make a turn giving him the cue. He's smart, and will hopefully pick up on that pretty quick!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

It sounds like he already turns his head plenty- what you need is for him to learn to keep his shoulder in line. That's going to be all in how you handle the outside rein.

Trust me, I do not stick to arena driving. I do Combined Driving Events with both my minis so we spend most our time running around cross-country when we're not doing dressage. I still only use vocal commands to turn when we're wheeling sharply through an obstacle at high speed; it's simply not necessary otherwise.

Leia

 

[studiowvw]

Oh my goodness, this sounds like an oversimplified question. I mean there is no simple answer.

You can teach them to bend at liberty or on a single line, and then carry that over to lines, building on what you get.

I think it is a matter of acquiring knowledge, applying it, and having the sensitivity not to ruin what you have - plus being able to allow some things to "break" while acquiring others.

And having a program going so you build patterns, not just "give it a try" and end with "well, he can't do that, so I guess we failed."

I'm not very knowledgeable about driving, but I have an opportunity to do a series of clinics in in-hand dressage, so looking forward to learning that over the next few months with my mini.

 

[brasstackminis]

Leia,

My pairs driving instructor uses Gee and Haw on all of his horses... My first driving experiance was a mini donkey...first time I heard Gee and Haw. I am not sure when or where it is "supposed" to be used, but I have seen many non-draft equines trained with the terms. I am thinking that you could tell your horse Turkey for right and Chicken for left if you wanted to!

Although, wouldn't that be hard to explain to a new owner or anyone else driving your beasties why you chose those words? LOL

 

[susanne]

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Port and starboard?

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