Gray Gene/White Markings on Face/Body in Horses

[Wings]

Yes, actually and, as far as we know, in fact, she is. I have a Splash mare who has a small white star, but she is definitely and proven by breeding to be a Splash mare. I also know of at least one minimal Tobiano stallion (three white socks) who throws fully expressed pattern.Freeland (Songcatcher) has a SOLID stallion who is proven by testing to be LWO (He also has a true Black and White stallion who is Smoky Black but that is another story.)

He actually, and he isn't splash or frame or any other testable pattern. he is solid and can only produce non solid foals to non solid mares.

This is something that has been accepted for years. There is NO such thing as "normal" white markings. Google it and you will see what I mean. Any white on an animal that is not the result of injury is caused by Pinto.I am not sure how I can put this any plainer- you are perfectly free to ignore that facts as you wish, just as you are completely at liberty to believe the world is flat.

(sorry, that last one came over snippy- not intended to be, but it is so long since I have come across anyone who was not aware of these facts I just do not know what else to say....)

I have googled, I have also talked it over with some very good colour people and I'm not finiding that white markings are pinto. And yes you are coming across as snippy.

Perhaps it is just down to miscommunication, perhaps its just that darn term 'pinto' but I think it's best I don't return to this topic.

 

[Bonny]

I personally am learning so much here. Its fascinating to me to read about equine color genetics.

Pinto and Appaloosa sure can make a head spin.

I am a bit confused so if anyone would clarify for me, I would appreciate it....What causes blue eyes? I know it isnt just because the blaze crossed the eye region as my neighbors have a blue eyed *solid* bay mare, grade who knows what, with *normal* socks in the back. no star snip or blaze.

My pintaloosa has a bald face and 1&1/2 blue eyes...the soldid blue being on the side that the blaze doesnt cover

I know it comes from some pinto just not sure which one.

 

[targetsmom]

What causes blue eyes? In my herd, it is mostly Rowdy that caused them! Our LWO+ mare has one blue eye so maybe it can be frame. She has a wide white blaze and is has gone gray (the original topic of this thread) which could also mask splash. We have another Rowdy bred mini (a gelding) with a blue eye, blaze, and wild pinto color pattern. So blue eye could be from anything.

Now this mare, a daughter of Cross Country Call Me Sir, I THINK is splash, but haven't had her tested because our stallion is LWO negative. You can see a small snip on her nose, plus she has a white spot on her butt and a white tail so she is definitely a pinto. Could be frame...

Our new blue-eyed mare Dancer has no Rowdy blood, and I would guess from her dam's wide blaze that she might carry frame. She is a wildly marked silver dapple "tovero". Again, no reason to test except curiosity, so haven't done it yet.

 

[Lizzie]

What a striking girl, Targetsmom. I'd say she was definitely frame and probably splash too. Her blue eyes are probably from frame, but could be from splash also.

Lizzie

 

[Eagle]

So am I right in thinking that this guy is sb1 as he is almost totally white.

(sorry about the bad pic)

father is black pinto with sabino I think and mother is a sorrel (grey)

 

[Songcatcher]

So am I right in thinking that this guy is sb1 as he is almost totally white.

(sorry about the bad pic)

father is black pinto with sabino I think and mother is a sorrel (grey)

If the White were caused by Sabino (or any of the other Pinto patterns) the skin would be pink underneath. If he is grayed out to White, the skin will be dark (which is what he appears to be).

 

[Eagle]

What confuses me is this breeding has produced both grey pinto, sorrel pinto gone white ( colt in pic) and Sorrel so the mare can't be GG right?

 

[targetsmom]

Lizzie- I may have to get some testing done to satisfy my curiosity! This mare (Toffee) had a tobiano filly when bred to solid, and is now bred to our tobiano/splash stallion. As I said, I think the blue eyes are from Rowdy through Red Boy and of course, we know Rowdy was frame. But that snip looks to me like splash. So glad that our stallion is LWO negative! He has a snip too - and that may have also come from Rowdy through Ramblin Starbuck! Does anyone know if Rowdy also carried splash?

In answer to Eagle's question, the gray mare must be heterozygous for gray if she had a sorrel foal (that isn't turning gray).

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Somewhere I read (Sponenberg?) that any horse who has white on him has a pinto gene, but then have modifiers which inhibit the white to just the legs and face. If these modifers are homozygous the horse will never throw a foal with white on the body.

 

[Songcatcher]

What confuses me is this breeding has produced both grey pinto, sorrel pinto gone white ( colt in pic) and Sorrel so the mare can't be GG right?

That is correct.

 

[Songcatcher]

Somewhere I read (Sponenberg?) that any horse who has white on him has a pinto gene, but then have modifiers which inhibit the white to just the legs and face. If these modifers are homozygous the horse will never throw a foal with white on the body.

I definitely believe that there are modifiers that inhibit the amount of white, but I don't believe they can totally prevent white from appearing on the body, even in homozygous form. Otherwise, if you bred one horse, homozygous for the inhibitor to another horse homozygous for Tobiano, what would be the outcome?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Just wanted t add that Rowdy, although definitely and proven by breeding to be LWO, did not have blue eyes and the thinking at the moment is on the fence about LWO actually causing blue eyes. We are pretty sure that Splash does, pretty certain that Sabino does not, but no longer sure that LWO can cause them.

I think all the patterns are now so very mixed up, just like the Appy patterns, that, until we have tests for all the Sab genes, and one (at least) for Splash, we will not know for sure exactly which patterns horses carry.

However, the "normal" white, I am afraid is now no longer accepted, nor has it been for quite a while. You have absolutely no way of knowing for sure that your stallion cannot throw a full pinto, you only know that he has not, yet.

This mare- Red Dun + Sooty + Flaxen + Splash, bred to this stallion

Red Dun + Flaxen+ Splash, produced a red and white foal I have a picture of somewhere and cannot find, the stallion is her grandfather as well as the sire of the foal, which actually looks a lot like Songcatchers foal, but the point is, two animals with only white stars to their names produced a full Pinto foal.

Both animals have dark eyes but the stallion (Rabbit)'s sire produced an ice blue eyed, jet black foal from a black mare.

There are many, many more cases of this sort of thing happening, so saying it cannot becomes a bit meaningless.

Anyway, please do join us on Equine Color Forum, where people with far more technical knowledge than me can explain to you why the clones white comes out differently, and how all white on a horse is attributable to Pinto!

 

[Eagle]

Jane I am about to make an idiot of myself so start freely to giggle

Could the pinto foal not be due to previous relatives rather than her immediate parents? What makes me ask is the thought of thorough breds and warmbloods that often have stars, snips and socks but never throw pinto!

What would you call these white marks?

Sorry but these wonderful colours are all so very new to me, show jumpers are all bay, chestnut, black or grey (yes very boring)

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

I definitely believe that there are modifiers that inhibit the amount of white, but I don't believe they can totally prevent white from appearing on the body, even in homozygous form. Otherwise, if you bred one horse, homozygous for the inhibitor to another horse homozygous for Tobiano, what would be the outcome?

Indominate modifer? (Is that actually a word?)

 

[supaspot]

I definitely believe that there are modifiers that inhibit the amount of white, but I don't believe they can totally prevent white from appearing on the body, even in homozygous form. Otherwise, if you bred one horse, homozygous for the inhibitor to another horse homozygous for Tobiano, what would be the outcome?

surely the out come would have to be a visually solid horse that can produce pinto offspring

 

[Songcatcher]

surely the out come would have to be a visually solid horse that can produce pinto offspring

I believe those modifiers that inhibit or restrict the white are incomplete. In other words, they limit the white to face or legs or minimal form on the body, but do not totally prohibit it. Otherwise, we would regularly be seeing Pinto foals from totally solid parents.

 

[supaspot]

I bred this visually solid black horse with two blue eyes (dna tested positive for LWO) to a solid black mare with a star and they produced a bald faced filly with two blue eyes , he has produced several foals with stars snips and both wide and narrow blazes , I had always assumed that the bald face came from the sire but after reading this Im now wondering ..is it possible it came from the mare ?

 

[Songcatcher]

I bred this visually solid black horse with two blue eyes (dna tested positive for LWO) to a solid black mare with a star and they produced a bald faced filly with two blue eyes , he has produced several foals with stars snips and both wide and narrow blazes , I had always assumed that the bald face came from the sire but after reading this Im now wondering ..is it possible it came from the mare ?

It could easily come from either one or both.

 

[MBhorses]

wow this topic is very helpful

thanks you all

ps how can i change the topic to gray genes and white markings face/body or something like that so everyone would know where to look

 

[targetsmom]

You can change the topic title by going back to your first post and doing an "edit" and select "full edit". That will let you change the title.

I know Rowdy didn't have blue eyes but I wonder what pinto patterns he carried in addition to frame? And isn't he a great example of a "solid" and what they can produce when bred to another solid? Other examples are cropouts from the AQHA that (I believe) led to the Paint registry. Solid X solid= wild frame (cropout).