Ground driving question

[Marsha Cassada]

My project horse, Smokey, has a good whoa when longeing or working inhand. But ground driving is a totally different thing.

He is going forward well, so now I am concentrating on his whoa. At first I only asked him to whoa for a split second, then clucked to go forward while it was still my call. Then I asked him to whoa for five seconds. It really frustrates him to whoa when he wants to go forward.

Yesterday we had some success in the last half mile of our 2 mile route. It takes me a good hour to go that route as he spends time backing into ditches, going in circles, and pawing.

What I've been doing is standing perfectly still, just keeping enough pressure on the reins to let him know he can't go forward. I try to stay relaxed. I let him back sideways, but if he backs up to me I use the whip to cue him forward. If he circles, I try to stay behind him, just keeping mild pressure. I don't say anything. If he paws, I let him paw till he gets tired of it. After he finally stands still for a few seconds, I ask him to go forward.

(It's actually rather funny to watch him backing into the overgrown ditches into the dry weeds of the rural road I use. He doesn't like it. He has such an expressive face and body.)

Do you think this is the best way? Any ideas? He is very spoiled, plus very smart.

 

[Rhondaalaska]

It may take time. My diva was like yours. She still is at times but we have her standing up to a minute now.

She still has her moments but we don't go forward untill she is calm.

I also found that she did better once we used a bit instead of a halter with lines attached.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

If it were me I would ask for a stop and when I get it release the pressure rather than holding on to him. If he tries to walk off a calm "whoa" and a tightening of your hands reminds him again to stop. As many reminders as it takes until they give up and stand. The reward for standing is a release of rein pressure and the correction is simply a return to that pressure until the stand. In the beginning they will try to walk off the minute you release but it will only take a short time for them to 'get it', as soon as he stands (even for a moment) release/reward. I think the reason he keeps dancing, pawing and most of all backing up, is he is trying to escape that pressure. Give him a way to escape it by doing what you want and he will become solid on his whoa pretty fast.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

If it were me I would ask for a stop and when I get it release the pressure rather than holding on to him. If he tries to walk off a calm "whoa" and a tightening of your hands reminds him again to stop. As many reminders as it takes until they give up and stand. The reward for standing is a release of rein pressure and the correction is simply a return to that pressure until the stand. In the beginning they will try to walk off the minute you release but it will only take a short time for them to 'get it', as soon as he stands (even for a moment) release/reward. I think the reason he keeps dancing, pawing and most of all backing up, is he is trying to escape that pressure. Give him a way to escape it by doing what you want and he will become solid on his whoa pretty fast.

I do release. Just try to stay calm and quiet. I think the pressure he is trying to escape at this point is Standing Still, which he doesn't want to do. I try to stay really focused during the whoa lesson and conscious of my pressure.

He is very responsive to pressure; just a tightening of my fingers on a rein and he feels it. I'd like to keep him that sensitive. Even when he's pawing, he's standing still so I don't put any pressure on him. Even backing up I try to keep the pressure off. Only forward movement gets the pressure. Does that sound right?

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Yes,I think you are on the right path. I had understood from the first post that you tried to hold him when he stopped. I have seen a lot of people react to their horse attempting to walk off by maintaining the 'hold' they have taken on the reins, but once they stop they need to be rewarded for doing so at your request and only asked again to stand if they attempt to move. As long as you are giving him the release when he stops then practice in a safe place and just continue to wait him out. As soon as he tries to walk forward its; close your hands, "whoa" and when he even just pauses, release. If he steps forward, repeat. Sometimes you have to give them lots of time to come to the conclusion you need them to. I have found occasionally (assuming you have another patient quiet person to help) that time can be shortened if you have someone else to act as a header for a bit and step up and hold them after they stop (I actually position the horse so the helper is where they need to be right away) Then once you have them standing quietly with a header for a couple of minutes you can gradually move the header back a bit at a time until they are no where near the horse (about 10 or 15 feet out in front works for me) then gone all together. I say a safe place because you don't want to have to over react to the backing or walking in circles. Try to stay where you stop no matter where the horse goes (as much as it is safe and physically possible to do) and let the horse circle you when he starts that until he is tired of that, only backing as you need to, to stay out of his way and off the reins. If a safe location can be found you need not even get after him for backing just wait him out, when he finds it won't help him go forward he'll likely give that up pretty quickly.

edited to add: don't forget to praise him verbally when he gets it right too. He needs all the reinforcement he can get from you to tell him what is the right response.

 

[Kendra]

I think you're on the right track. I'm a big believer in making it your idea to move, even if they've only whoa-ed for a split second. The only thing I would suggest is to avoid asking him to whoa at all until he's had a chance to stretch out his muscles and, with any luck, gotten a little bit tired. Set him up for success - ask him to whoa when he's starting to think that it might be a good idea.

Good luck - he will get it eventually!

 

[Margo_C-T]

I do not and have never had anyone around to help when working horses(except on the rarest of occasion),so have had to rely on only myself. Others have given some good advice; I'd like to expound just a bit to say: EVERY action should be instituted by YOU. A gentleman who trained RIDERS to train their horses, very astute, once compared the relationship to that of a (good)employer to his/her employee...and YOU are the employer.Do not allow the horse in training to make any of the decisions when working.

I like to longe a horse prior to ground driving or long lining, as a warm-up and yes, to where they begin to tire, as it is hard to work a horse vigorously enough to truly TIRE one by ground driving(unless you are very young and very spry!! Then, as Kendra noted, work the horse seriously on the ground driving before starting to ask for the whoa/stand.

I also like to use the word,'Stand'. I want 'Whoa' to mean STOP, period; then 'Stand' to mean, 'hold that stop'.

I have come to realize that working a horse on Showmanship in hand can be a good foundation for teaching a good 'whoa' and 'stand' in driving, and have friends who totally believe in so doing. I always 'started' w/ serious training on the aspects of showmanship, w/o thinking about a connection, but now can see how it can be of benefit, as a solid 'whoa' and 'stand'(hold the desired position)are basics in successful equine showmanship(my AMHA Honor Roll listing was in Showmanship, so I do know the subject, even though honestly, I never really liked it, preferring events w/ more 'action', if you will!), but I WOULD recommend proper showmanship training as a foundation for other events.

Margo

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Yes, I've heard that showmanship is a good basis for driving and I can believe it. I need to look into that more and take some classes on the proper way to train for that.

Two seperate words for different types of whoa is a good idea. I'd have to work on that, remembering to use them at different times.

I am able to trot a little with him while ground driving, even asking him to trot in a circle around me. This is rather helpful as I can teach him to trot in a controlled way, rather than all out as he would like.

Luckily, though he is spoiled, there isn't a mean bone in his body. He just has to figure out how to discipline himself. He is 5 years old, almost old enough to begin to have a brain!

Something I dislike is a horse that turns its head away from the halter or backs away from the halter. We've been working on this, and now he stands well to be haltered. He accepts the bit well also.

Good support here! Thank you for the tips!

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Good point Margo. In hand work is always the very best precursor to working at a distance from the handler, whether that is longeing, long lining, ground driving or even liberty work. If your horse will not hold a stand when asked to while being led he is really not yet ready for line work.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

He is 5 years old, almost old enough to begin to have a brain!

Oh I know that feeling all to well lol. I have a now 6 year old gelding who was just about the most ADD animal I have ever encountered until around 5 years old. It was astounding to see such a smart animal (and he is very smart and always thinking) with such a short attention span.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

He did very well on the whoa today. I had no trouble at all. I didn't ask him to stand still but a few seconds, but I was pleased.

The side check came unhooked sometime during our workout but he didn't lower his head, so we can perhaps dispense with it now. I had it very loose.

I'm going to seriously look into showmanship training.

 

[Rhondaalaska]

Thats great. It feels good when we accomplish something. Your little guy is doing great.