Hardshipping into AMHA - yes or no

[JWC sr.]

Picking up where another post left off, I thought it might be a good thing to discuss.

As most everyone knows hardshipping currently ends for AMHA in 2013.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing for the registry and the breed itself?

I am still undecided about it.

Things that were brought up at a show a while back that were discussed at length:

1. The registry gets between $80 - 100,000 a year from this activity.

2. It allows for more membership and inclusion of otherwise excluded people in some cases.

3. Do the genetics of the breed in general need additional diversity in order to remain strong and moving forward as far dealing with specific issues such as dwarfism.

4. From a marketing standpoint what are the effects for the general membership as it currently stands now?

I understand that John Eberth is going to address the national meeting in San Diego about the genetics issue and the effect closing will have from that standpoint on the breed, which should be very interesting.

What are everyones thoughts on the issue?

Just for information's sake let me also say, that from a completely personal standpoint all of our horses with the exception of 3 or 4 are already double registered, so besides for the long term benefits or negatives for the breed/registry itself it does not effect us much.

 

[minimomNC]

I looked at the financial statement on AMHA's website but couldn't find the break down for registrations. So just to clarify, AMHA is getting between 67 - 167 horses hardshipped each year? Is this every year? And I got my numbers from dividing your figures by the price for stallions making the lowest number and the price for mares making the highest number, all other variables would be in between these numbers?

Does it really increase membership just to hardship? Because I have seen several people on here complain about the high cost of hardshipping and they have had horses, would having to hardship a horse make someone become a member?

Also how would hardshipping a horse under 34" with an unknown background help the genetic base? That horse could come from a long line of dwarfs and you wouldn't know it until it produced one therefore adding nothing to what is already in the registry. According to some that I have heard speak on the matter, the only way to move toward a decline in reproducing the dwarf gene is to bring in taller bloodlines, that would also increase the height of the horse and making it non eligible for AMHA registration anyway.

And also to clarify, I am not a breeder, all of my horses are AMHA registered now and I feel there are enough show quality horses out there with AMHA papers if I feel the need to buy another one. I just want to show another side to the issues that John brought up. As for the registry closing, won't make a bit of difference to me either way.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

If AMHA ever wants to become a breed they need to do this. I am not a fan of AMHA by any means but with AMHA closing the books for good I am starting to look at AMHA/AMHR horses only. So I think this will for sure make people want to get AMHA horses, and of course you can still hardship into AMHR by A papers.

 

[Darkstar]

Does the AMHA plan on honoring AMHR papers after 2013? Will they allow an under 34" 5 year old AMHR horse into the AMHA? The AMHR is still honoring AMHA papers, aren't they?

I think this would be a big factor in determining if it was a good thing or bad thing.

 

[minih]

My opinion all along, which doesn't count for much

is that they need to lower the hardship fees and allow more AMHR horses to be hardshipped in. I have several at the house I would hardship in this year if it were allowed. I have talked with others and know that they would also. But for me a piece of paper is not worth a thousand dollars, since I show only AMHR. I do not see where closing AMHA will benefit at all.

Maybe I am missing something, but how does being a breed registry as mentioned above really matter, compared to being a height registry? I have heard this on here before and it's always said like it is a big thing, explain how please. The only thing I see is like the shetlands, ASPC, I think if a horse outgrows their papers they do not lose them for breeding purposes?

so besides for the long term benefits or negatives for the breed/registry itself it does not effect us much.

Same goes for me also, since I do not buy a horse on whether it has AMHA papers or not, but I will say I would make mine eligible to have both A and R, I just will not break my bank to do it.

 

[McBunz]

I think closing the books is a terrible idea.. When you look at some of the top horses you will see many have next to nothing in their pedigrees..

They come from pony stock or unknows.. What will happen to the next Buckaroo that comes along..????? The AMHA also need the money bought in

by hardshipping..

 

[minimomNC]

Does anyone have any idea of the horses that are hardshipped into AMHA, how many others were rejected? Does anyone know of a horse that was hardshipped (breeding stock that is, not geldings as they won't pass on anything) that they feel was measured only and not inspected? Do they have to be inspected or just be within the height range? Would lowering the hardshipping fee bring in better horses or more of the same poor quality ones we already have?

I feel that if you add the purchase price of an unregistered horse to the cost of hardshipping it now, and you wouldn't pay that for the horse to begin with, its not worth hardshipping it either. If I bought a mare for say $1200 that isn't registered or is only AMHR registered and I didn't feel like she is worth $2200 as an AMHA or double registered mare ($600 hardshipping fee plus $400 for extra expenses, DNA, inspector, etc..) then more than likey she isn't worth breeding at all. Now this is my opinion only, its how I feel. With the price of AMHA registered horses today, its just easier and cheaper to buy one already registered then to go to the trouble and expense of hardshipping one.

 

[cowgurl_up]

Ok, I got to attend my first AMHA show this year (not showing myself but helping a friend) and I think I would enjoy going to a couple of A shows on top of my R shows I try to hit every summer. I like how much they break down the classes by height, which gives a more fair showing for some horses. I like the idea of hardshipping R horses, but I think instead of putting unknown on the papers, the R parents should be filled in with some way of marking that they are R only horses (I'm guessing they just mark unknown if the parents are not A horses). I have registered with Pinto and the pedigree is not lost there, even if they are not Pinto registered horses! So I guess my two cents is to include the pedigree on the papers, and if they MUST close the registry, only stop people from hardshipping those unknown unregistered horses and at least leave it open to the R horses?

 

[ontherisefarm]

Well here is my 2 cents worth which I am sure nobody wants to hear.... AMHA can never be a breed registry as it is soley determined by height. The only way it could be a breed is to allow foals from 2 AMHA parents to still keep thier registrations even if it goes over 34 inches which I know most people dont want. Also there are too many different types of horses,to be a breed we need to stick with one particular type or at least narrow them down a bit. Most of my horses are double reg AMHA/AMHR so it doesnt matter to me if they stop hardshipping but I think they will lose much needed revenue along with other reasons... I have never hardshipped nor will I as I cant afford to do it unless I was given a quality horse that would be worth the cost. Well anyway thats my thoughts I will go away now...

 

[ClickMini]

I think closing the registry is a bad idea. I have two that I will be hardshipping in the next couple of years, just sent the paperwork in this week on one of them. She is a gorgeous 11 y/o mare, 33.5", moves beautifully, and produces excellent foals. She happens to be registered AMHR only at this time. I think she is well worth hardshipping in, even if the only foal I get registered under her is the one she is currently carrying by my stallion Mountain Meadows Alladdin. Here is the mare I sent the paperwork in on:

I will also hardship Esprit just as soon as he is eligible. I want to be able to show him in our NWMHC shows, he is eligible for gelding incentive money and also I love to participate in our club shows. Our year-end awards are lovely and in my mind prestigious. What I like the very best about AMHA is the AOTE program! There is no equivalent in AMHR. I want to show my fellow under AOTE, I am the only person who has ever trained or worked with him. I would like to see how far we can go together. I think he is definitely worth hardshipping in, because I love to show and I think he will be VERY competitive in geldings and AOTE.

So I guess it goes further than the direct impact to the registry itself; it will help the clubs that are the base of the registry, it will help the show managers by helping to fill out the programs, it will help any charities that benefit from show profits. When I take Esprit to a show, he is going to be one of those that go into 10 or 12 classes! He will be an all-arounder: driving, in-hand performance, and I definitely think he will continue to hold his own in halter. This is a lot of impact to the registry and local clubs if you bring in a few of these each year!

 

[Genie]

I have never "hardshipped" to AMHA as the cost is prohibitive.

I prefer "A" horses when purchasing but have some beautiful"R" horses that I would put "A" papers on if the cost was more reasonable.

I think that the AMHA registry could earn a lot of revenue with a more reasonable fee for transferring an "R" horse's papers.



Sometimes a person will hold out for a dollar and will refuse 8 quarters while waiting for the dollar.[ :shockedb][/b]

 

[MountainMeadows]

John, A hot topic to be sure - one that is emotionally charged on both sides! ! However, from my personal perspective I see that there is only good to be had from allowing the "registry" to remain OPEN. Here is where I am comming from:

After being in this industry for over 25 years, I think we CAN ALL AGREE that tremendous strides in IMPROVEMENT of the conformation & movement of the breed have transpired -- largely due to 2 reasons:

A. Breeders being very concientious about not breeding dwarves or at the very minimum not REPEATING a breeding that produced a dwarf.

B. The allowance of the taller horses to that qualified to be hardshipped into AMHA, be allowed to do so - thus creating a larger gene pool base.

Closing the "registry" at this time would stop the influx of new blood comming in from the taller horses and probably keep our AMHA horses in a stagnation point genetically when it comes to ELIMINATING the dwarf gene - or at the very minimum the occurrance of having a dwarf born would become extremely rare -- I think that we would all agree that this would be a "good thing" and something that we do all want to have happen.

On the other hand, we as breeders SHOULD be concerned about the ability to MARKET our horses. I understand that there is a very emotionally charged group of breeders who will continue to strive to create THE most perfect small horse -- the smaller the better.

That is Great! Perfectly OK with me --- BUT --- not all prospective BUYERS want a horse that is primarily lawn art -- they want a horse that they can DO something with - and the more it is able to perform at the level closest to a large horse - the better --- HENCE, need the height and the inherited breeding traits (ie movement!) of some of the larger animals to be able to achieve these goals.

THERE IS ROOM FOR BOTH SIDES -- I honor & respect those breeders who passionately are breeding for the smallest possibly correct horse -- I would hope that those individuals would also honor & respect those of us who choose to take a different path and still stay within the guidelines of the AMHA.

That said, I am astounded that both the AMHA & AMHR have not taken the steps necessary to allow horses to retain their AMHA or AMHR registration papers even if the horse exceeds the height limit of the registry -- NOT be allowed to show, BUT be allowed to contribute to the gene pool for the reasons stated above. It is only a matter of time before this rule is challenged, both the AMHA & AMHR will lose this battle should it go to court -- it has already been established in a Texas lawsuit that the progeny of 2 registered parents (DNA PQ verified) SHALL result in the ability for the resulting foal to carry registration papers of it's parents (In the lawsuit it was about Quarter Horses - but the bottom line is that it established a criteria that is being followed by several other registries rather than being sued by their own members).

This topic is about GROWTH, and continued IMPROVEMENT of our beloved breed -- why close the door on IMPROVEMENT?

Stacy

 

[JMS Miniatures]

You are right, the only way AMHA could become a breed registry if they still accept their oversized horses as still AMHA horses. Perhaps before closing the registry they should pay more attention to those who are already registered in it first.

I tried hardshipping one in the past, had a very bad experience with it, this director either she didn't know how to measure a horse, or she didn't want my horse to get in and from what I heard about this director that might have been the case. You know what we were much better off at the end.

Are they going to discuss about closing the registry again at Convention? Its one of those topics where the whole general membership needs to vote on, not just the 100 people who show up. But from what I am reading perhaps they should keep it open, atleast for right now.

 

[Suzie]

I have two horses here right now that I plan on hardshipping into AMHA. I have a gorgeous AMHR only horse who puts down gorgeous tiny foals every year. However, we have not rebred her for 2009 because she would have an AMHR only foal (due to closing of the hardship) and the market in my area for AMHR only horses not as good as AMHA/AMHR. I can't hardship in the mare now because she is too tall (slightly). She may have been AMHA at some point but who knows?

So basically, AMHA will lose all the income they might have recieved from me in regards to this mare from here on out.

I am probably in the minority but still, it is income they would have gotten from me and anyone else who would have bought these foals and their get down the line. Granted, once I hardshipped them in, the other amounts would have been less, but still it will be LESS money coming to AMHA in the years ahead that it would have been otherwise.

I know closing the registry is probably valid for some reason, but as long as the horses being hardshipped in meet all the requirements stated in the bylaws, I don't see the purpose myself.

 

[horsehug]

Stacy,

I agree with your post, and I am one who is always trying to breed for the best TINY horses.

I have hardshipped in several horses over the years and more of them were small than tall. I hate to lose that privilege if I find nice tiny horses that are AMHR only, or unregistered even!

So yes some of us who like the tiny ones agree with you!

Susan O.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Well I've already had my say on this topic several times. Anyone that wants to sift through the last heated debate on this can still see it here:

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.ph...0amha&st=30

I can see the reasoning on both sides. I tend to agree with minimomNC's reasoning, but I also think MountainMeadows' post was especially considerate and well-put. One of the great things about minis is variety, but I think it also leads to some of the biggest issues within the registries--how do we determine things like standards if we've got thousands of people breeding for thousands of different things? We all agree that the days of getting by on novelty alone are gone; to me that signifies that if we want to create a stable market for our horses then we need to start moving forward. And I know it's a heated topic on here, but to me the only obvious way to move forward is to take the necessary steps toward becoming a breed.

The example of the QH lawsuit really only applies to a blood-based breed whereas AMHA is currently only height-specific. Closing the registry will obviously change that, which may force AMHA to finally accept the oversize designation that so many here want. That too would solve the issue with retaining the taller genetics that many feel sure would help to counter the dwarf genetics without bringing in new unknowns.

You can say that changing the registry will alienate people, but I think that the registry's hesitance to take a firm stand on just what a mini is supposed to be already alienates people and causes a lot of divisiveness within the membership.

On a little aside, I did find this statement questionable:

When you look at some of the top horses you will see many have next to nothing in their pedigrees.. They come from pony stock or unknows.. What will happen to the next Buckaroo that comes along..?????

Remember that AMHA is only 30 years old. Buckeroo was born the same year AMHA started and both of his parents were nevertheless registered. I took the time to check all of last year's World Grand and Reserve Grand Champions (in futurity, halter, and performance--22 "top horses" altogether) and not a single one had an unknown parent. Only two out of 22 had any unknown grandparents; in both cases the unknown grandparents were on the dams' sides and the dams were 18 and 24, plus one of the horses was a gelding anyway. At the very least, one horse's pedigree only traced back 4 generations while alternately a handful's went back as far as 8 generations. For a registry that's only been around 30 years, I'd have to disagree that that's more than "next to nothing." In other words, many dedicated breeders have done an excellent job of improving their horses with just the current gene pool.

 

[Jill]

My initial feeling is that closing it to hardshipping is a bad idea. Reading what Stac has just said and a similar post awhile back from her, just solidifies to me the reasons I am not in favor of it closing.

On the other hand... who knows... It may be just another thing that sets AMHR appart from AMHA and may benefit AMHR in the long run, as AMHR does allow hardshipping of shetlands who within the size limits. We can see what the shetland blood is bringing into the breed and that so many people do like it.

 

[wpsellwood]

I think that it should be closed with the exception to the amhr, they take accept the AMHA horses and I think the AMHA should accept the AMHR horses, change it to 3yrs old not 5 yrs. Just me. That would allow in registered horses and shetland ponies. You can cross out in several other breeds and get appendix papers. Its still a breed ie quarters.

 

[sdmini]

Pros of closing it would be a it would help stabilize the market. If you have a product (AMHA registered horses) that can only be obtained from one source (AMHA parents) that does hold somewhat of a elite status which will help drive up the price. Here in my neck of the woods with the exception of the phenomenal ones a AMHA or AMHA/AMHR horse will command more money.

Another pro (depending on what side of the fence your on) is it will keep out the Shetland blood. I could elaborate but that would take up a post on it's own.

The whole "we are now a breed" concept is funny to me as I consider us a breed now....and a height registry. I've never understood why we can't be both. QH association up until just a couple years ago had certain things that made them ineligible for registration soooo were they just a "solid" registry.

I also don't see the prospect of genetics and issue. I remember a few short years ago AMHA was one of the top five for numbers for horse associations and as our doors, so to speak, have remained open to all that met the criteria we have been continually adding new genetics to the mix.

All that said I think it is a horrible move. AMHA has long been full of grand gestures and ideas, unfortunately those are also hard to fund. I would be more insupport of the idea if there was a proposal on the table on how AMHA was going to cut that much money out of their budgets. Are we going to see rises in fees, cuts in programs? Please don't take my words as fighting words as they are not meant that way, AMHA "I" think has always been one step ahead of AMHR in marketing and promotion but those come at a cost and my concern is simply business, not argumentative.

I would have loved to see AMHA take just a portion of that money and pigeon hole it for gelding incentive programs that would reach down to the smallest of competitors. Geldings are unfortunately our bottom rung animals, if we could raise the worth on geldings a lot of our market would self correct. With the lure of money back geldings become more lucrative, luring breeders to geld those so so stallions. Fewer stallions and we all win.

Simple thoughts from a simple mind.

 

[Sarah's Little Blessings]

Well, I don't really think they should close it! Thats just my say-so though. I had a little grade mare hardshipped A, then registered R, and also had one mare who was already R hardshipped A.

I am with the ones though that say they ought to lower it! I think they shouldn't charge so much for geldings(for sure) and mares, maybe stallions make higher, I'm not either way on that one. Also, to me if your horse is already AMHR, why can't they register them for like the 200++ , instead of the 641.00 for a mare?

Just my personal opinon, however I hope they don't close it fully.

Also, most everything I have now is AMHA/AMHR, but I don't buy on that basis, I still have two colts(one to be a gelding) 1 B size R mare(so she'll never be able to get AMHA) 2 A size mares and then three A size fillies(who I want to hardship into R, before it closes).

I do like double registered though, because at some shows you can pay one stall fee/gas fee, and show AMHA, and AMHR, plus some people prefer one over the other.