Has anyone had experience with founder?

[LuvMyBabies]

One of my horses was foundered when I got her. I had never had any experience with it before but I am just doing exactly as my vet says and having her hooves trimmed regularly. She seems to be doing great! As of last I spoke with my vet, he has her off of grass all together. Is there ever a time it will be safe for her to freely graze again, without a muzzle, or will this be forever?

 

[Marsha Cassada]

How old is she? Her age would might a difference. How bad is it? Is it chronic?

What caused the founder? Grass, or did she get into a forbidden feed bin and gorge?

You may not know much about her history.

 

[LuvMyBabies]

Thanks for the reply, she is 19. I am not sure of the exact reason for her founder. A friend of mine had acquired her and he didn't really wish to keep her, he shows and works and is very busy. He knew though that I was a big fan of her breeding and I just love to appreciate their beauty and personality and she is soooo sweet! He called me and I agreed to take her. As of spring shot time the vet said no grass at all, muzzle only. I usually hand walk her so she doesn't have to wear that thing on her face. We go for long walks while the others play in the pasture. Her feet are rock hard according to my farrier and she is almost grown out a new set of hooves. A couple more trims and the old hoof will be completely gone. She is doing really well so I follow to the letter what the vet and farrier say. I just wonder as we walk next to the pasture of my other running, playing minis if ever she too will ever be able to do that again?

 

[Jean_B]

Depends on a number of things. Is there any rotation? Cause? Since you really don't know the reason, I would err on the side of caution. My experience (2 horses in 25 years of raising minis) has been they need to be kept off grass pretty much all the time, especially since yours is an older girl. But particularly during the "hot" time when the sugars are highest - first grass of the spring and last grass of the fall.

 

[LuvMyBabies]

I agree. She had a very slight rotation is what I was told. She is not sore in any way, doesn't have any inflammation, nothing off as far as gait, she will run right with the others with her muzzle on. I had no previous experience with founder but she seems to be doing just great! She acts happy and loving and loves to be doted on. I hope we have her a long, long time. She's a special little lady and everyone just loves her.

 

[LuvMyBabies]

This is my little girl, she's doing good!

 

[Miniv]

She's LOVELY. We have several mares who are in their upper teens and in their 20's and we have to be careful with pasturing.

Your farrier is your best friend with these situations. Are her coranery (sp) bands warm? Is she acting tender footed?

Keeping her off pasture and no grain is the safest thing to do. We provide grass hay and a supplement and salt block to ours.

We also give them Buteless pellets, also known as BL Pellets. They think it's a treat.

By any chance does she have Buckeroo in her breeding? She has his look.

 

[LuvMyBabies]

Thank you, and yes she is on a grass hay diet, vet does allow just a handful of her good senior feed at her feedings, but very controlled, measured diet. Yes she is a direct daughter, good eye! I also have a Destiny daughter. I just love them! Very sweet natured horses.

 

[Ryan Johnson]

One of my mares who has foundered wears a muzzle when out in the pasture. I agree with all of the above comments, just wanted to add that another time of the year to avoid pasture is when the first rains arrive after summer.

You will get a million different answers to the "grazing muzzle" on here , The one I use has a small hole at the bottom that allows very limited amounts of grass pass through. She has very limited time on pasture, I more use the muzzle so she is able to exercise and play with her paddock friends. She has instead, constant access to great quality grass/ clover hay and also a mineral block. Unfortunately once a horse has foundered , theres a high chance they will founder again if not watched closely.

Welcome to the forum

 

[Debby - LB]

Unfortunately I have experience with it. After a year of dry lot, careful feeding, and trimming I can now let my little mare out to graze about a hour almost every morning before sunrise. She so far seems to be doing well with this. She has hay almost all the time and she gets some pellets with a product called Remission once a day. I do have to watch the richness of the hay and we keep the paddocks she goes out in cut. This is the first horse I've ever had this happen to, and I will admit she was a little bit too fat but I also have suspected Cushings since that happened so I'm not entirely sure of the reason it happened I just pray it won't happen again.

It sounds like your Vet is on the right track and yes it very well could mean she can't free graze forever.

 

[Cayuse]

Have you talked with your vet about having her tested for Cushings and Insulin resistance? Sometimes that can be a contributing factor to founder.

She is very pretty!

 

[LuvMyBabies]

Thanks to everyone for your comments and advice. It's so nice, much appreciated!

 

[LuvMyBabies]

Even if she doesn't ever get to run muzzle free like the others, I try to give her special attention. I often walk and jog with her so she can exercise without the muzzle,I won't allow her to eat grass. We go for long walks and visit neighbors and she is showered with attention. When back at the barn I brush on her and dote on her and try to make her feel special! She seems to like our little arrangement, haha!

 

[AngC]

...snipped... Is there ever a time it will be safe for her to freely graze again, without a muzzle, or will this be forever?

I too would be interested to know whether laminitis/founder is a life sentence???

We experienced it with a much younger horse (approx. 18 months at the time.) We had no rotation (x-rays taken after the fact.) We have had no reoccurrence with Baby, but it is a concern that hangs over our heads every day.

A couple comments:

1.) I never got a grazing muzzle for any of our three; not only does Baby have a really small head (difficult to fit) but those things look like Hannibal Lecter masks; looking at a grazing muzzle for a big horse at the local co-op literally had me in tears. We chose other options like soaking hay, limiting pasture, using a Nibble Net, etc.

2.) All three are fat; I think. But, we've really been trying to observe who does what. For example, our older stallion (similar age to your horse) well, he quits eating. He'll actually save hay for later. He has a 1/4 acre or so of grass, but he doesn't overeat (too much.) Baby's dam will stop eating. Baby, well, heck would have to freeze over before she stopped. I hate having to limit their feed (which is grass/hay only) but, she just won't stop eating, so I go out 4-6 times per day and dribble hay out to them. And have limited fresh grazing considerably.

 

[Miniv]

I wish I knew the answer, but I don't. I think a serious founder is forever doomed to be off pasture AND grain.

We don't like muzzles either. For me, it's like being a chocoholic and going into a See's Candy store and only being able to smell it.

If they have plenty of space to trot around on and plenty of hay to eat, I think it's kinder not to make them stand over green pasture.....Just my opinion.

Fortunately we have several dry lot areas, but not everybody does.

What's curious to me is that we have several paddocks and pastures with plenty of grass and we also give those horses some hay and they come running for it!

As for the muzzle. I remember we bought two, years ago....It was specifically for when we were actively showing and they were nibbling on bedding! I don't think

we've ever used one since and I'd have to do a major search to locate them again. Hmmmm.....

 

[candycar]

I let my foundered mare "free graze" for about 1/2 hour before I put the grazing muzzle on her(and the others, just in case). Then they all get to graze for about 2-3 hours depending on what time of year it is and how sugery the grass is. If not using the muzzle, one hour free grazing is the max for us. No one has had a laminitis attack or foundered since with this program. Not that it won't happen, it just hasn't yet.

Your Vets advice is a good place to start. Mine said it was OK to let her graze a little and that she would get better with time, as long as we kept her weight down.

It really depends on how much time you have to devote to feeding your horses, how bad the founder is and how prone they are to laminitis attacks. I keep the pasture short so they can get the grass through the muzzle hole. Believe me, they get enough! My foundered mare can even snatch a mouthful on the fly as I bring her in.

Some horses with muzzles eat better than others, but they all figure out how to get some. I hate to see my pasture go to waste just because of one horse! Everybody here gets turnout and the feeling of grazing.

 

[Jean_B]

Yes, I think founder is a lifetime sentence. At least I always wanted to err on the side of caution. I did have one broodmare that would get "ouchy" when her foal was weaned (and was then put up in dry lot), but while the foal was milking her off, she could have grass. I don't have any foundered horses here now, but when I did, they were kept in dry lots until winter and deep snow arrived.

Grazing muzzles are readily available from tack vendors that specialize in miniature horse tack and you should be able to find one that fits. Star Lake Tack, Ozark Mountain Tack, Stateline Tack, Mini Express, Show Time Tack....and more.

I too would be interested to know whether laminitis/founder is a life sentence???

A couple comments:
1.) I never got a grazing muzzle for any of our three; not only does Baby have a really small head (difficult to fit)

 

[AngC]

Yes, I think founder is a lifetime sentence. At least I always wanted to err on the side of caution. ...

Grazing muzzles are readily available from tack vendors that specialize in miniature horse tack and you should be able to find one that fits. Star Lake Tack, Ozark Mountain Tack, Stateline Tack, Mini Express, Show Time Tack....and more.

Thanks, but I realize that I could probably find a grazing muzzle to fit Baby. I don't want to.

I don't leave anything on anyone's head when they're not under my immediate supervision (except Velcro fly masks, which they can/and sometimes do readily rip off.) I'm hoping that my pasture control and feed control will suffice. I don't know, maybe I'll be on here next week complaining that I made my horse too fat and gave her/them the founder.

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

In Laymans terms, the sugars that cause founder is how nature preserves its grass. They are high in the spring because the grass had to survive the winter, the sugar was like an antifreeze for that period.

The sugars also spike in the fall, because nature is gearing up for the grass to have to survive the winter, kind of like you switching from summer windshield washer fluid to one that won't freeze.

I wouldn't put a sugar sensitive horse loose on grass late or early in the seaso

 

[LuvMyBabies]

AngC they probably make break away muzzels like they do halters, I don't know for sure, or you may be able to alter one to do so. I keep close watch on mine when they are out but I do leave halters or muzzles on in the field. I feel if ever they breeched the fence they would be easier to get back. My little one that is prone to founder hates the muzzle. Often times I hand walk her so she doesn't have to wear it yet I ensure she doesn't get the grass. My vet feels it's really important to her well being, all be it it feels mean, to keep her off the grass. My others I only let out in controlled increments so they don't overfill on grass. They start packing on the weight if I am not careful. Mine are all plenty plump and solid, slightly heavier than ideal but not excessively fat. I like them a little plump as we head into winter.