height restrictions with breeding?

[BriarwoodAcres]

Would anyone feel comfortable breeding a 35" in stallion who is very refined to a 31" stocky mare? I've herd both yes and nos?

 

[Matt73]

I wouldn't have a problem with that at all.

 

[RayVik]

Quick answer would be yes you would probably be ok

However I personally would review their immediate background for heights to get a idea of what size they came from so as to have more to judge my decision on. Even at that and if I saw any flags I would still consider breeding them with perhaps a little closer attention when foaling time came.

 

[ohmt]

Absolutely with an internal vet check of the mare to make sure she is roomy enough. I have bred a 29" mare to my 34" stallion 3 times now. She is an older mare (16 this year) and has always produced very tall foals even when I bred her to my 28"-30" stallions. Most of her foals were taller than her at weaning, but she is the easiest foaler I have. They cross beautifully and she has had zero problems foaling-gave me my "Pippa" last year for those that remember her. I rarely have that big of a height disparity though.

 

[REO]

No, I would not

 

[BriarwoodAcres]

Reo you wouldnt have a problem with it or you would not breed them?

 

[Matt73]

It's not the height disparity you have to watch so much as the "bone". If your stallion is truly refined and the mare is more stocky, I wouldn't have a problem with that. 4" is not a huge difference. The foal will not, necessarily, be any bigger at birth than if you bred her to a stallion of the same height or smaller; you may, though, end up with a bigger horse/pony once they stop growing. I bred my 34" mare to Triple K's Double Your Destiny two years ago (he's 33"). Levi was born with the longest legs I've ever seen; I, honestly, don't know how he stood up lol. As a yearling he's easily an inch or two taller than his dam :s. you just never know....

Here's a pic of Levi from May 11th, 2011. He's an hour old here!!! lol

And a pic of him from this past Spring (thank the Lord he grew into those things...lol)

 

[REO]

I would not breed them.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

A study was done years ago where draft mares was bred to pony stallions and vice versa. The foals out of the draft mares were born larger than the pony mares, but all matured to the same size. Foaling problems were not an issue.

I would not worry about size differences.

Dr. Taylor

 

[Just_Rena]

Not horses but.......... My daughter wh is 4'11 and weights 103 lbs, had two beautiful babies naturally. Her husband is around 6' tall and a healthy weight. Both babies where tiny at birth, my granddaughter who is 7 now, is almost as tall as her mother. Tiny can birth tall grown things.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I would not do it either.

I do not believe the myth about the mare governing the size of the foal, not in Miniatures, and I am not at all sure about the veracity of the experiment with the Shetland mares and the draught stallions- for one it was fifty years ago and for two, they did not care if the mares died and we have no way of knowing how many mares used in the experiment did, in fact, die.

It all depends on too many things for me, and also, I have to ask, why would you?

 

[Crabtree Farm]

Not only does genetics come into play, but nutrition. Now days people supplement this or supplement that.

Some breeders of the past or back in the days, were known to dole out just hay and some cracked corn. Nutrition definitely makes a difference, whether it be during gestation or during suckling/weanling/yearling stage.

Thus the offspring can become taller than the parents.

 

[shalakominiatureshowhorses]

I dont know anything about breeding, but looking at Bentley's pedigree, ALL of the horses on it (3 generations) were 31''-33''. He is 37.75'' tall! I just dont understand why he is the tallest one in the family!!! His full brother is probabaly 34'' tall, Brigidear is smaller than Bentley.

So, with that, I dont think the height of the parents determine the height of the foal when its mature, but i dont know anything about genetics or breeding, and im just basing my opinion on my horse's pedigree

 

[Magic Marker Minis]

Well, since I'm breeding the under 34" I wouldn't breed them... You also probably won't be able to double register the offspring, thus reducing their sale value.

Kari

 

[disneyhorse]

I would not do it either.

I do not believe the myth about the mare governing the size of the foal, not in Miniatures, and I am not at all sure about the veracity of the experiment with the Shetland mares and the draught stallions- for one it was fifty years ago and for two, they did not care if the mares died and we have no way of knowing how many mares used in the experiment did, in fact, die.

It all depends on too many things for me, and also, I have to ask, why would you?

I'm not sure it's a "myth"... But I do know of a breeder here in California that I visited his herd when I accompanied a friend who selected a mare from... They breed Percherons and crosses. The draft crosses I have seen almost ALWAYS take after the dam. If out of the draft mare, the foal has bigger feet, size, and heavier bone.

The breeder I visited switched this up and began breeding his percheron stallion to thoroughbred mares, and got more warmblood- looking horses that were far less "drafty" than those he had gotten out of his percheron mares. In fact, they are gorgeous!

But I did not ask him the mortality rate of doing this... But he had a few in the herd so I assume he is successful at it.

So saddle horse to draft is pretty common, so I would think pony could be feasible.

The main thing to ask is: is the particular cross worth the risk of losing the mare? This should also be the question regardless of size coming into play.

 

[Marty]

Would not breed them. Nope.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

I will add the following article to the evidence that the mare controlling fetal size is not a myth.

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=276

excerpt from Fetal Development and Foal Growth:

Back to fetal development. The size of the fetus at birth is often determined more by the mare's uterine capacity than by genetics, although genetics do kick in once the foal has been born.

In one bit of research at Colorado State University, a Shetland pony mare was inseminated with semen from a draft horse stallion. The pony mare delivered a small foal during a normal birth, but the foal soon outgrew its mother once it was on the ground and nursing.

Two papers presented at the International Symposium on Equine Reproduction held in South Africa in July also indicated that the mare exerts considerable influence on the size of the growing fetus.

In one paper, a researcher from Poland--Marian Tischer, who studied embryo transfer foals--found that "irrespective of genetic makeup, the ultimate height of the horse is decided by nourishment during gestation and less so by the milk capacity of the mare."

The second study was carried out by researchers in England who studied the influence of maternal size on fetal and post-natal development in the horse. They reported that, "Maternal size significantly affects fetal growth, presumably by means of limiting the area of uterine endometrium available for attachment of the diffuse epitheliochorial placenta."

Once the foal is born, genetics and nourishment are highly influential in growth and development. A foal which has the genetics for large size can do considerable catching up in the first few months of life, particularly if it receives proper nourishment and has been properly nourished while in the uterus.

Dr. Taylor

 

[disneyhorse]

And as a human, I carried my twins full term and they were born very small, but by 18 months my boy is as tall as a two year old!

 

[Jill]

I would, no question. I really feel that it's not a question of height, but a question of bone structure. Would have answered sooner, but confused this with another thread!

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I would just like to share a story that illustrates the point some are making regarding foal size at birth. Many years ago I went to a horse auction (this was before I had minis) and there was a tiny (to me at the time altho she was probably a B sized horse, maybe 38") mare with a 1 month old foal at her side. The bidding was slow and the only one interested was one of those people the community all knew to be a less than good home so my husband (the big softy) bid on this mare. What we were supposed to do with such a tiny horse I didn't know lol. Of course we 'won' the mare and brought her home. We wormed her and had the vet out and started a good dietary program for them and then began researching her background. Turns out she was pastured with a full sized quarter horse stallion (people have no sense

) and he was the only possible sire of her foal. By the time that foal was 4 months old it was already bigger than momma and he just kept on growing. I think he ended around 13 hands but at birth he was tiny and she delivered him with no human help in that pasture with the rest of the herd. As far as I know she was never bred again so I can't vouch for any damage done but considering his size at a month old when we got him I don't expect there was any. We had no reason to expect him to grow as he did based on his size when we brought him home but if he had shown his genes at birth he would have been far too large for his dam. Just to be clear, I would NOT breed horses with such a large size difference but in the case of the OP I would not be any more concerned about the outcome than for any breeding.