hip conformation

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

I'm one who likes more of the roundness with lower tail set (more like the APHA/AQHA/ApHC horses) than the flat "coffee-table" horses with the tail coming from the back..

I think our boy Doc has a nice hip, and he's passed on great hips to his two boys at Chesa's

Not the best photo to show it off, need to pull him, clean him up and do a photo shoot:

And I think our young boy Royal has a nice hip as well, he's still growing (only a yearling) but I think he's going to level off nicely.

 

[disneyhorse]

Hello...

I would caution you against trying to look at pictures of horses posted on the Forum threads about conformation... I see many threads like this one and I'd venture about 50% of them are NOT "good examples" of what you are looking for. Not that they are "bad" examples but they are generally very average horses that people are a little bit barn blind because they do own them. But they will post pictures for you and say "These horses of mine have good hips" or whatever, and I PERSONALLY would disagree... I would rather suggest you check out books about conformation and really DO study angles and such, learn what points to use as "landmarks" and then yes you will have to use the imaginary lines to figure out if the angles and depth really DO make "good" hips or shoulder angles or whatever.

There are a lot of different ways to gauge conformation, and what people are looking for.

As to the tail sets, I don't think they have much to do with the ability for a horse to "get under himself" or not. I think there are just so many factors that play into it (how the back ties into the pelvis, the angle of the pelvis itself, the length of the gaskin and the lower leg and then even the pasterns and hooves themselves. The horse has to be built AS A PACKAGE for good motion and such. No one factor (depth of hip, slope of shoulder, etc.) can determine anything.

Andrea

 

[targetsmom]

Right on, Andrea!!! Yes, everything has to tie together porperly for the body to function correctly and if it doesn't, you often end up with problems like sore backs.

A book I like on this subject is Horse Gaits, Balance and Movement: The natural mechanics of movement common to all breeds by Susan E. Harris and available at Amazon.com. There are over 300 illustrations showing good and bad examples, (including bones, muscles, and angles) and explaining how movement is affected.

 

[Minimor]

Good post Andrea! I was thinking the same thing but wasn't sure I should say so

and for sure you're right, there is much more to it that length of hip & how flat the croup is/how high the tail is set. You can have decent length of hip and a thin, weak stifle (and yes, I was looking at a photo of just such a horse a couple days ago) and/or the hind legs are set on wrong and the horse isn't going to be able to move properly. You have to look at the whole picture.

definitely do study some conformation books--and "big horse" conformation books work just fine--if you learn what is good and bad conformation for the full size horses you can then apply that to the Minis. Good conformation is good conformation, no matter what size the horse is.

 

[Getitia]

I agree with Andrea, in that our experience has not been that a higher tailset impacts an horses ability to get underhim or herself from a driving perspective. Unfortunately weak shallow hips, short hips and thin weak stifles can often be found in this breed.

Here is a horse that has a pretty decent hip - not perfect - but better than avg.

 

[ClickMini]

Getitia, that horse for sure, is the whole package.

 

[BM Miniatures]

I feel my lovely yearling colt that I sold has a Great hip...(I have permission from his new owners to post these photo's)

His Mom

 

[hobbyhorse23]

As for warmbloods, I have not seen a warmblood driven either.

Just FYI, Warmbloods are very popular in the upper level combined driving events back East.

They're amazing!

I hope the origional poster doesn't feel like Im jacking the thread, but I thought I would add to it and ask a question.
My halter gelding has a bad hip. I've had some people say it, and I don't think its anything pretty. With more weight and with him soon to be driving, I think it may improve a bit, but anyways....why is his hip bad??? I know it doesn't look good, but the reason is unknown to me.

http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc111/S...006_0711006.jpg

And one were hes not too bad looking

http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc111/S...June2009121.jpg

I don't think your horse has a particularly bad hip, although he is long in the back and has a weak loin. I'd like to see more depth in the stifle (the stifle joint should sit lower beneath the point of the hip) and a stronger connection to the back but I do like the muscling he has in the middle of his lower hip, as evident in the second photo.

One thing that bugs me is the separation of halter horses and performance horses. Halter was originally a conformation class, judging the horse's suitability for the tasks it was going to be asked to perform under saddle. FORM follows FUNCTION! Tabletop croups and the like are issues of type, not conformation. One reason Arabs are shown stretched is to flatten that topline- it isn't supposed to be completely flat when the horse is standing square and relaxed, not even in that breed. When it is, the horse most often can't move because its pelvis is tipped up and the angles are wrong. It is possible to have a high tail set and attractively flat topline with correct pelvis angles, but it takes a knowledgeable eye to tell the difference. I too prefer the warmblood look, but even then I'm fairly particular. I wasn't overly impressed with the horse in the first video Amy posted because he never really coiled his hindquarters at a trot and was completely unengaged at a walk. Riverman was better, much more supple in his movement, but even he had a very inexpressive piaffe. Guess I'm really an Iberian girl!

I want a classically trained horse who moves correctly from the rear with a very light touch on his face.

Anyway, here are the best conformation books I've found to date. Try:

Dr. Deb Bennett, Principles of Conformation Analysis

Nancy S. Loving, DVM, Conformation and Performance: A Guide to the Performance Consequences of Common Conformation Points

Heather Smith Thomas, The Horse Conformation Handbook

All three of these are easy to understand with good, accurate information. Deb Bennett's books are slim volumes that discuss horse conformation from the perspective of why a horse is built the way he is and how each aspect of his conformation dictates what he's suited for and are the best thing I think you can ever read. The Horse Conformation Handbook is intimidatingly big but is easy to read and breaks up the body into sections, with really good diagrams that are easy to understand. The "Conformation and Performance" book is short and to the point, with each page dedicated to a particular fault or type of conformation (i.e. "Short back" or "deep hip") and a discussion of what that fault will mean relative to your horse's performance. Mostly real photos, no diagrams, but very useful. Between the three of these you'll get a very thorough education!

Leia

 

[kaykay]

I happen to adore Lightening (getitias horse) and that is why I asked her permission to put him on the cover of the miniature horse conformation book I wrote (proceeds go to cmhr) . To me he is so balanced and correct EVERYWHERE as opposed to a lot of horses that might be spectacular in one aspect but weak in another. And his show record shows that he can and does do it all (halter, performance, jumping)

I do think its very hard to take a strong look at our horses and admit where they are weak. And its hard sometimes to see it in pictures. I know at teh show I was at last weekend people teased me about being so hard on my own horses. But as a breeder I have to be or I cant improve on what I have and what my goals are

I also do not consider myself an expert on anything but did feel there was a real need for an easy to understand book that addressed the most common faults in miniatures

I think one of the most misunderstood terms for miniature people is type vs conformation. They are not the same thing

 

[Jill]

I think one of the most misunderstood terms for miniature people is type vs conformation. They are not the same thing

I think this is true. When I first got into showing, my horse was very correct and did fairly well (first & champions), but didn't always win. It took me awhile to realize if you want to do really well at halter, you need to have BOTH good conformation and the "right" type and while my horse was correct, he was more of a stock type. There are plenty of conformationally correct horses that I personally woudn't want to include in our program because they lack the desired type. With so many horses to choose from, you can have nice conformation and good type in the same animal.

 

[MiLo Minis]

This stallion has a great hip with a rounded croup and a tail that rounds nicely off that croup. Although is it difficult to fault his conformation he may not do as well in halter as he is not the "type" that is popular in the show ring today.

This filly also has a very nice hip but has that flattened croup when she is posed and will be more likely to do well in halter because she is that "type". Both are going to be wonderful driving horses as they have the power in their hind end to push the weight.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I think one of the most misunderstood terms for miniature people is type vs conformation. They are not the same thing

I think this is true. When I first got into showing, my horse was very correct and did fairly well (first & champions), but didn't always win. It took me awhile to realize if you want to do really well at halter, you need to have BOTH good conformation and the "right" type and while my horse was correct, he was more of a stock type. There are plenty of conformationally correct horses that I personally woudn't want to include in our program because they lack the desired type. With so many horses to choose from, you can have nice conformation and good type in the same animal.

That is very true. Where you run into problems is when breeders have the type but not the conformation and can't see the faults through the "pretty."

Leia

 

[Jill]

That probably happens sometimes, no doubt, but to me the worst is people breeding without an eye to either and we all know that happens way too much in the breed. Get your first mini - your first horse - one year and call yourself a breeder the next. I don't think that happens in any other breed and it happens in minis every day.