Horse conformation discussion

[nicole]

Conformation is conformation no matter if you have a arab or quater horse style.

I have seen both types and lots that are just beautiful. I have also seen some that are very refined not because they are built that way but because they are so darn skinny and really took away from the looks of the horse.

We have a lot of unknowledgeable people around us and I have tried to help but no one seems to grab at the opportunity.

Everyone seems to buy from auction sales and they don't want to spend the money or the time and get a quality animal. I would say 95% of the minis in my area are from auctions. Most don't even know what lines they are from!!! So I would say that in my area people are not taking the time to research!!!

When someone calls me about a horse, I ask so many questions like what are you looking for and what do you plan on doing with this horse.

I am be going off the topic a little but I have been reading some posts and I tried to elaborate on some.

I just don't like it when someone buys a mini as a pet then decides they would like to breed it and make some money then realize they are not making any money off these horses then they end up at an auction for cheap to someone else who will do the same.AHHH! Unless people don't start learning this will go on.

I have seen this time and time again. Thats when things start to escalade

I know you will always have those type of people but wow I have seen more and more of them!

 

[backwoodsnanny]

I found this thread interesting for several reasons. I dont post my horses for critiques for many reasons but primarily because I have bought horses that I like and or that at the time needed rescue I dont ask anyone else to pay for their feed or vet bills and truthfully I dont care what anyone on this board or anywhere else thinks of them. I have bred our first foals this year after 5 years having minis and looking at your critique threads and reading everything I could get my hands on regarding conformation.

I am not selling foals I am at least for now keeping them all. That being said I do have some well conformed horses in my eyes but think that if I posted them some would find the tailsets low, others would find them cow hocked I have one who is somewhat U necked, and still another who is long in the back I have one mare that yes I bred who puts flighty beautiful foals on the ground but her son from two years ago who has a very good bloodline is finally beyond spaceshot but it took 2 years and training to get him to this point. So my point would be that even if we are educated regarding conformation it does not guarantee that you wont own one who has conformational problems or other problems that are equally undesirable.

All my foals look like they are going to be wonderful horses Helen is the only one who will have a challenge in terms of being a useful and wonderful additon to any family. Any flaws they have will not prevent them from going in to a show ring, we have no sanctioned shows anyway. non of their flaws will keep them from learning to drive or from living a long life. None of their flaws will stop them from being a loved member of someone's family so I guess I simply dont see the point of this thread at all.

As for type vs conformation I have a heavily built stallion that I do not use for breeding but that every horse person who has seen him has said take him to the ring he is gorgeous but I know he would not make it in the ring because he is not in fashion today. I do believe that is what Sherri was getting at. I dont use him for breeding because I am trying to breed for the type of mini that is in fashion. So yes beauty IS in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Frankie]

I think that is exactly Cathy's point.

You breed even if the head is too big,,,,,because "To me",,,,,

and we have those who breed low tails sets,,,because "to them"........

and those we breed ???? ,,,,,,, because "to them".......

There are a ton of people who breed,,,,,,,and will say,,well the horse is or is not this,,,,,,,,so I'll breed to a horse that does or does not have that.

But how do you KNOW, that is what you will get?

If you know the fault,,,,,,,,,,,why do it?

And what? makes who? right

 

[rabbitsfizz]

No horse has ever been born that has no fault.

This is not in the eye of the beholder, this is fact.

So, whatever you breed to whatever it should ALWAYS be the best you can get to the best you can get.

Now, speaking as a breeder and a seller do my horses have faults??

Yes, every single one!!

Some have more than others - I do not count a low tail set as a particularly bad fault, I have to admit.

Since I preferr a high tail set, that is what I breed for.

But, when selling a foal for a pet, how many people have said "Oh yes a colt will be fine, we only want a pet and something to love. We cannot afford a huge amount but will give him a forever home??"

Cos, I have to say, I have NEVER heard it yet.

What I HAVE heard is

" I only want to pay pet price.

I expect to get a filly for this .

If she is only pet quality who cares I shall breed a foal and recoup my "losses" "

How many times have we on this Forum begged people not to breed unregistered, pet quality horses only to be told we are elitist, know it all snobs??

And then had people say , more or less-

"Sure you go ahead and breed your ponies what do they know anyway"

So I tend to let these threads take care of themselves nowadays unless they are from someone I know and who I know is genuinely asking for opinions, not just begging for praise.

I do look at the threads and sometimes I am very pleasantly surprised but, beyond saying the horse is nice and I like it, I will rarely comment.

People get nasty, persoanl (totally uncalled for!!) and rude far too quickly.

 

[Frankie]

Well, I haven't bred for 2 years, and until I know the right person, is right,,,,,,,,,I'll keep doing homework.

Jane, I am so in an uproar,,,,,,,,,,,,Prints is perfect!!!!!!!!! I bet you forgot about her. :lol: :bgrin

 

[Dandy]

Well, I don't believe in breeding horses that have what I would consider an unsoundness. But I do believe that there are people who are not looking for "show" quality horses. A lot more people own miniatures for enjoyment rather than to show them. I went to a very large sale a few years ago and there were several young horses from what is considered by many to be the leading pedigree today. Anyway, over half of the ones I looked at had bad bites. I was wanting to get some horses from this bloodline, but I did not purchase any for that reason. I feel I have a nice stallion, but he's small and his neck is really too short. At the time, I was just learning and I bought him from a reputable farm. He has the best disposition of any horse (large or small) that I have owned and I've owned several. My mares all have longer necks and so far the foals have not had the short neck that he has. I'm not in this for money and only breed a couple a year. The people who I have sold to are looking for the horse as a companion. That's not to say that some of these foals might not have been or could be a show horse, they just weren't looking for that. I guess my point is that yes we should try to improve the breed, but there is a place for "companian/pet" horses. Also, many of the pictures I have seen in the magazines have been altered and don't look a heck of a lot like the real horse. Thank god for that, cause some have looked more like giraffes than horses. JMO.

 

[Jill]

Well, I think the fact is if a person is not willing to open their eyes regarding their own horses, this thread and all the others will make no difference. We will still get tons of requests for critiques from people who will have hurt feelings if they hear what you, me or Sue Equestrian thinks. I really do not know the solution. However, when giving someone a critique, I feel better about doing it when I can also point out the things I DO like about the horse. Just as I have not ever seen a perfect horse (and I'm harder on my OWN than on anyone's), I have also yet to see one where there were not a couple things I did like. This isn't sugar coating at all in my opinion.

ADDITIONALLY, some people think you cannot go far with a QH type halter horse. I own one, Tibbs Sundowner, who is a 9x National / Reserve National champion in halter and model classes. Judges have preferences in type, to be sure, however, a GOOD horse is a GOOD horse and a QH type can go far... Anyone who doubts can check Sunny out on his page: http://www.whinny4me.com/sunny-page.html If you look, I don't know how you can think anything but he's a "quarter horse in miniature". And I sure do love him!

 

[kaykay]

Okay now there are faults and there are severe faults. This is not Kays theory this is accepted across the board any breed of horse be it big or small. Anyone here ever read horsemens magazine with the little page on conformation where you judge which horse is better?? Why is it okay to do it in big horses but not miniatures? I can only imagine the uproar if we tried to do this on the forum or in our breed magazine. Its just plain silly. What makes us exempt from holding to standards that breeders big and small have held to for years??

I think so many are missing the point here. The point is sometimes a fault is just a fault. Its not always caused by a bad farrier, nutrition, injury. If we keep posting to people that so and so that has severe sickle hocks is fine to breed because it was probably caused by a bad farrier then what are we teaching?? Or even worse is the horse that has serious leg issues but they are advised to train it to drive. Form follows function.

Not every horse will be show (halter) quality. Not everyone horse should be a driving horse. Every horse does have a purpose.

 

[Jill]

I hear you, Kay, and I do love those magazine features you are talking about. I used to love "doing" that judging then reading if I got it "right" and if so or if not, WHY.

There's a real problem in minis that I don't think you have with full size horses, and that is that people buy their first mini -- their first HORSE -- and a year later, they are a breeder. There are already SO MANY MINIS out there. I feel it's so important that before you let one reproduce, you really know you've got quality animals to put together.

I've had minis since 1999, and big horses for 5 years prior to then. Only just now am I starting to put into place a breeding program.

There are many others who have better herds than I do, I know, but I do have what I think is very nice and it has been proven in the show ring. It's just something that I take really seriously. I want to do what I can so that when I do produce foals, they will be quality. These animals may be around for 30 years. It is important that they be as well made as possible.

I wasn't able to get to the type of mares and stallions I have now because I wasn't open to looking at WHAT I really had in my first minis. It's not easy, but it's important. And, be that as it may, there are still people who are going to breed this stallion who maybe is a little cowhocked but such a cute face and nice color to this mare who toes out but probly wasn't trimmed right... It might not even stop until it seems like $2500 is a "BIG" price for a mini when they're all going for $500...

 

[KanoasDestiny]

There are already SO MANY MINIS out there.

I see this phrase over and over! My question then is...why do professional breeders continue to reproduce constantly? If there are too many out there, then why not allow the ones already out there to find loving homes rather than end up in a slaughter house, because people who have a name for themselves breed 10, 20, 30 foals a year? This reminds me of the world of dogs. People constantly complain that there are so many unwanted or mixed breed dogs in this world, but yet that doesn't stop the "breeders" from adding more to the population. Whether it is for money or to better the breed, it is still contributing to the number of animals out there. Why is it ok for so-and-so not to breed because there are too many, when someone on this forum is perfectly fit to breed 20 of their horses? I have read several posts here where someone who is a professional breeder has sold a horse and it ends up in auction or on it's way to slaughter. In my opinion, they may have been trying to better the breed also, but it didn't make it so that horse didn't become one of the neglected or unwanted. I just don't understand why people here don't accept that they are also part of the over population problem.

 

[disneyhorse]

KanoasDestiny~

"Professional Breeders" breed because it's their focus! They spend a lot of money and time investing in breeding stock, promoting it at the National level... and showing does not pay back any monies! Thus they recoup their costs in investing in these top end horses by breeding them to the best of their abilities so that the resulting foals will hopefully be as good or better than their parents. It really is a challenge.

Professional breeders may be adding to the population, but hopefully the quality of animal they are adding are NOT of the worthless-except-pasture-ornament-only... hopefully the animals they add to the world are good for pets AND for breeding AND for showing. The goal is giving the resulting baby all the edge it can have to have a happy, successful life no matter where it finds itself. By being able to be placed in a show or breeding home, it has additional home possibilities than just a pet home only (and thus a limited home brings a limited price tag).

Andrea

 

[JWC sr.]

Where is there a market for mini's as killers. I have a local killer buyer that lives in an adjacent town. That I called after I saw your post and he has been in the business for over 30 years and was not aware of one. He contends that there is a market for ponies in the 600 - 700 pound range to go to belgium, but none for mini's which I was glad to hear.

As far as there being an overabundance of miniature horses in this country, I am not sure about that. We personally have no problem placing all our babies we wanted to sell for the last several years in good and loving homes be they show homes or pet homes. If we did have that problem I agree with you that we would stop breeding our mares very shortly as I could not afford to keep all of them. We re-adjust our breeding program in 5 year increments( bloodline crosses, different stallions to different mares, longer necks, smaller size etc) as it takes us that long for project to come to fruitation or be scrapped. But a severe wrench would be thrown into the works if the babies we produce were not marketable and of the quality people wanted.

:saludando:

 

[Jill]

There are already SO MANY MINIS out there.

I see this phrase over and over! My question then is...why do professional breeders continue to reproduce constantly? If there are too many out there, then why not allow the ones already out there to find loving homes rather than end up in a slaughter house, because people who have a name for themselves breed 10, 20, 30 foals a year? This reminds me of the world of dogs. People constantly complain that there are so many unwanted or mixed breed dogs in this world, but yet that doesn't stop the "breeders" from adding more to the population. Whether it is for money or to better the breed, it is still contributing to the number of animals out there. Why is it ok for so-and-so not to breed because there are too many, when someone on this forum is perfectly fit to breed 20 of their horses? I have read several posts here where someone who is a professional breeder has sold a horse and it ends up in auction or on it's way to slaughter. In my opinion, they may have been trying to better the breed also, but it didn't make it so that horse didn't become one of the neglected or unwanted. I just don't understand why people here don't accept that they are also part of the over population problem.

Well, I think there are some breeders out there who SHOULD continue to produce horses each year. If people that have pet quality horses would just stop, that would really be a help. However, I feel there will always be a market for QUALITY minis. Looking back, I have purchased good foals the past several years each year. If I hadn't found what I thought was show / breeding quality, I'd have not bought. I'd like to see people with vision and good horses continue to produce foals each year and each year, some farms top the previous year in terms of even more wonderful foals imo. If the people who have this ability to out produce the parents stopped, then how would the breed improve? It wouldn't.

 

[Minimor]

Unfortunately the term "professional breeder" does not necessarily that breeder is breeding quality foals. Look at all of the "professional trainers" out there that are not GOOD trainers. I just love the assumption that just because someone is big name, big money, big numbers that they are better than the little guy that is raising one foal a year in the back yard....not "professional". I've seen horses I really like from little-known farms, and I've seen high prices horses with big name prefixes off of of fancy pedigrees, from a farm that is as "professional" as you can get, and you couldn't PAY me to take the horse; you surely couldn't pay me to use it for what it was sold for--a breeding animal.

:

I still can't figure out how the term "professional" or even "big name" means a breeder should continue to breed large numbers of horses. Many of those could benefit from some serious downsizing & culling too!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

[

Well, I think there are some breeders out there who SHOULD continue to produce horses each year. If people that have pet quality horses would just stop, that would really be a help.

And here lies the problem. One persons idea of good and quality surely isnt another. I do here many people use a show record as a reason to keep a horse in there breeding program and to justify it however.. many times you have to look into that show record. I have seen many say my horse is a champion in this even at the large shows and yet when I have looked I found that horse may be the champion however it was the only one in its class or one out of 2 or 3 so does that really truly make it a top show horse sometimes yes and sometimes it is possible that horse wouldnt cut it in a class of 20+ top horses and it was the best of the worst so to speak

Everyone or I should say most have a vision it is just that some have blinders on as well

 

[Fullmoon]

I don't breed anymore and haven't for several years. The reason is pure and simple ~ There are too many mini's. That being said I'm always amazed at people that say they've sold horses to make room for babies or because their changing their breeding program. If the horse you had to begin with wasn't conformationally correct at your house then why do you think it's OK to pass that same horse on to another person that more than likely will breed it? If your really committed to improving the breed then geld or spay before you pass your horse on. Do it before the horse leaves your place or believe it or not your contributing to the problem that is debated on this forum several times a year.

 

[Devon]

I've Definetly Noticed the lack in answers on Critiques lately. Especially if the Person asking is a youth noone here wants to purposly put down anothers horse but when your the on owning the horse oyu think is perfect I suppose it is hurtful to hear bad critique after bad critique. I don't mind to much if a so and so family is breeding pet horses because they are going to go to a pet home where they will be loved. I would personally if I was old enough breed show horse but thats IMO . If its not your horse don't worry about it. We can't stop pet quality breeding so many horses are pet quality. Geld them and Love them

:

:

 

[mountain_waif]

....

 

[Shari]

kay will write more later...had a 4 year old act up yesterday and got my hand caught in the rope

: first time ever. Hen pecking at the keys takes too long,, though Lisa and minimor are going in a simular direction

 

[Bluerocket]

If the horse you had to begin with wasn't conformationally correct at your house then why do you think it's OK to pass that same horse on to another person that more than likely will breed it? If your really committed to improving the breed then geld or spay before you pass your horse on. Do it before the horse leaves your place or believe it or not your contributing to the problem that is debated on this forum several times a year.

Lets get real here --- how many people can honestly say they have SPAYED a mare ANY MARE - much less spayed one before selling her because she was not good enough to be bred.

The purpose of breeding is to improve the breed - that means you start with nice horses and hope to produce nicer horses -- and then you sell the ones you started with - so you can breed the nicer ones.

Are you saying you should spay/geld any horse you are willing to part with - because if it is not good enough for you to keep it and breed it then no one should breed it?