midnight star stables
Well-Known Member
I agree.. sounds like you have tired very hard
OH!
Horse Sold as AMHR/AMHA pending
- Thread starter Deb E
- Start date
Help Support Miniature Horse Talk Forums:
OH!
Deb E
Well-Known Member
Wow, I only asked what "pending" means to everyone. This was the third mare I bought from LKF and she is awesome. My other two mares are there being bred. LKF does a lot for the industry, in particular their recent seminar was great. I certainly do not think that anyone did anything intentionally deceiving.
But I still disagree about how this issue should be resolved, and I was only interested in how other owners perceive the term "pending." I thought this message board was a way to learn and get information...not the place to publicly air a personal disagreement.
But I still disagree about how this issue should be resolved, and I was only interested in how other owners perceive the term "pending." I thought this message board was a way to learn and get information...not the place to publicly air a personal disagreement.
Deb,
$260 will register your mare AMHR. She is a gorgeous, well bred mare and has won everything there is to win at the shows that you have taken her to. It was a clerical error. My goodness, just get over it, or take the offer from LKF and return her to them and get another horse.
$260 will register your mare AMHR. She is a gorgeous, well bred mare and has won everything there is to win at the shows that you have taken her to. It was a clerical error. My goodness, just get over it, or take the offer from LKF and return her to them and get another horse.
gvpalominominis
Well-Known Member
I guess I have an odd sense of responsibility when it comes to presenting information to the public. It doesn't matter how "great" anyone is, or how well known they are... in my opinion... if you sell to the public, handle public affairs and put on public events especially for money, you have an inherent certain responsibility to that public. You ARE in the public eye whether you like it or not. It shouldn't matter how "busy" you are or who prints the materials.. it only takes a second to say "produce the paperwork" to a seller before accepting their auction info. That is not saying errors can't still occur... to error is human.
That being said, it is also my opinion that you take responsibility for your actions if an error is made and you correct it justly and fairly, which it sounds like Robin did or tried to do. As far as my statement goes... I had no idea who the auction house was and it really had no bearing on my statement, nor changes my opinions on the matter.
I also don't believe a horse should be sold on the pretense that it IS AMHA and AMHR registered when the application forms haven't even been sent in and the purchaser has to - not only pay for the transfer of ownership, but also has to pay and submit the horse's initial application for registration, pictures and any late fees that may apply. To me, until that registration certificate is issued by the governing organization, it IS NOT a registered horse!
That being said, it is also my opinion that you take responsibility for your actions if an error is made and you correct it justly and fairly, which it sounds like Robin did or tried to do. As far as my statement goes... I had no idea who the auction house was and it really had no bearing on my statement, nor changes my opinions on the matter.
I also don't believe a horse should be sold on the pretense that it IS AMHA and AMHR registered when the application forms haven't even been sent in and the purchaser has to - not only pay for the transfer of ownership, but also has to pay and submit the horse's initial application for registration, pictures and any late fees that may apply. To me, until that registration certificate is issued by the governing organization, it IS NOT a registered horse!
Lucky-C-Acres-Minis
Well-Known Member
I really hate when topics are twisted and turned like this one has.. Let me refer you back to the ORIGINAL post:
NO WHERE does she state who owned the horse previously
NO WHERE does she state who else had connections with this horse
and
NO WHERE did she ask who we all felt was at fault or should "pay" for the errors..
I find it saddening that it has made the turn that she is on here to "air her dirty laundry" so to speak.. She asked a simple question as to how we other breeders/owners/buyers/sellers defined "pending" and that's where it should have stayed.. Instead, like many other posts on here, others read to far into it and came to air their "dirty laundry", no one would have known Robin that this horse was purchased/dealt with through LKF had you not come on and personally stated and "told the whole story" and made the OP out to be a "pot stirrer/trouble maker".. Now, I have nothing against Robin or how it was handled as far as the sale itself, sounds like she's doing what she can to help set it straight, but I do have a problem with how it was brought forth on the forum like this (flame suits on)
So to answer your original question Deb, when I sell a horse as "pending", the paper work has all been filled out, names submitted and just waiting to receive them back from the registry/registries.. I try to do the paperwork early so I have them back come weaning/selling on our foals, but if not and I have someone interested/purchasing a foal that I do not have papers back on, then I do get a confirmation email from whoever the foal is being registered with that I show the buyer as proof that the papers AREthere at the office and as soon as I receive them back I'll sign/mail/transfer etc..
NO WHERE does the OP state what/whose auction she bought the horse from
NO WHERE does she state who owned the horse previously
NO WHERE does she state who else had connections with this horse
and
NO WHERE did she ask who we all felt was at fault or should "pay" for the errors..
I find it saddening that it has made the turn that she is on here to "air her dirty laundry" so to speak.. She asked a simple question as to how we other breeders/owners/buyers/sellers defined "pending" and that's where it should have stayed.. Instead, like many other posts on here, others read to far into it and came to air their "dirty laundry", no one would have known Robin that this horse was purchased/dealt with through LKF had you not come on and personally stated and "told the whole story" and made the OP out to be a "pot stirrer/trouble maker".. Now, I have nothing against Robin or how it was handled as far as the sale itself, sounds like she's doing what she can to help set it straight, but I do have a problem with how it was brought forth on the forum like this (flame suits on)
So to answer your original question Deb, when I sell a horse as "pending", the paper work has all been filled out, names submitted and just waiting to receive them back from the registry/registries.. I try to do the paperwork early so I have them back come weaning/selling on our foals, but if not and I have someone interested/purchasing a foal that I do not have papers back on, then I do get a confirmation email from whoever the foal is being registered with that I show the buyer as proof that the papers AREthere at the office and as soon as I receive them back I'll sign/mail/transfer etc..
The answer for me is simple I would not ever purchase a horse on pending or on application or eligible for registration ever I do not care who was selling it or where it came from.
UNLESS....
The horse was nice enough, the price was good enough that I had no issues at all with paying the extra dollars for hardshipping.
I am sorry it got to the point of "outing" eachother but we all have lessons to learn when it comes to purchases some we can fix and live with - others we can not get over - that is different for everyone but hopefully we all learn from them
in the end if you got a horse you are happy with and was what you thought and then some you are way ahead of the game
UNLESS....
The horse was nice enough, the price was good enough that I had no issues at all with paying the extra dollars for hardshipping.
I am sorry it got to the point of "outing" eachother but we all have lessons to learn when it comes to purchases some we can fix and live with - others we can not get over - that is different for everyone but hopefully we all learn from them
in the end if you got a horse you are happy with and was what you thought and then some you are way ahead of the game
Last edited by a moderator:
Deb, You are correct this is a place to ask questions, however- I have been in this business a long, long time. It takes one negative person to ruin 100 positive people. I know how this works as I have seen it way too many times. I felt I had to clarify this with you and others to set the facts straight. It is difficult to give advice and answer questions when you don't know the details in full. Uneducated advice (I mean this based on lack of facts in this situation) is not always helpful, it can be very harmful. If you really wanted to know what others felt about terminology, you could have simply left out the details of the sale.
In other words simply ask "What does pending mean?" This would have sufficed instead of making people think bad about a situation when they do not know all the facts.
The issue is not the definition of "pending" it is the fact that it was a typo in a sale catalog. I am not disputing the term "pending" or "eligible". I am clarifying the facts as your post did not represent the situation. The horse was sold in an auction and there are terms and conditions for that auction. It was clarified as such as soon as questioned. We have tried to fix the situation in more than one fashion. You merely getting on here and asking the question makes others point fingers, assume foul play and lay blame- heck even bring up lawyers and courts. Do you see how your simple question gets turned around by assumptions?
This is a great place for people to learn and ask questions, and I respect those who are on here and help each other out on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis. However- as in all e-mails and posts, things must be worded appropriately in order not to get misconstrued. I was not offended by your question, however I have to say I get very defensive when people start to give you legal advice, lay blame and point fingers without knowing the facts or the other side of the story.
This is where I had to clarify. Your situation is 100% different than most of these people are referring to or considering. As I tried to discuss with you on more than one occassion.
I am glad this has occurred on this forum so maybe others will take a step back and before placing judgement or giving advice they will ask a few more questions.
Again- maybe I shouldn't have clarified here- but there is a point in time where standing by and watching what people are saying and doing can only go so far before enough is enough.
Robin-LKF
In other words simply ask "What does pending mean?" This would have sufficed instead of making people think bad about a situation when they do not know all the facts.
The issue is not the definition of "pending" it is the fact that it was a typo in a sale catalog. I am not disputing the term "pending" or "eligible". I am clarifying the facts as your post did not represent the situation. The horse was sold in an auction and there are terms and conditions for that auction. It was clarified as such as soon as questioned. We have tried to fix the situation in more than one fashion. You merely getting on here and asking the question makes others point fingers, assume foul play and lay blame- heck even bring up lawyers and courts. Do you see how your simple question gets turned around by assumptions?
This is a great place for people to learn and ask questions, and I respect those who are on here and help each other out on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis. However- as in all e-mails and posts, things must be worded appropriately in order not to get misconstrued. I was not offended by your question, however I have to say I get very defensive when people start to give you legal advice, lay blame and point fingers without knowing the facts or the other side of the story.
This is where I had to clarify. Your situation is 100% different than most of these people are referring to or considering. As I tried to discuss with you on more than one occassion.
I am glad this has occurred on this forum so maybe others will take a step back and before placing judgement or giving advice they will ask a few more questions.
Again- maybe I shouldn't have clarified here- but there is a point in time where standing by and watching what people are saying and doing can only go so far before enough is enough.
Robin-LKF
Deb E
Well-Known Member
Last edited by a moderator:
Deb E
Well-Known Member
midnight star stables
Well-Known Member
It sounds like you have two nice horses from LKF. Below is what I think the issue is.
I agree that 'papers pending' means the papers were AT the association being worked on and that by saying A and R, the horse was eligible for BOTH.
'Papers not yet applied for' or 'sells with applications to...' A, R or whatever) would mean that the horse is eligible for the associations listed but that they have not been sent in, but should be ready to do so.
Then including AMHR was also a typo by the auction catalog? The horse was not eligible for AMHR, until registration was completed at AMHA, and that had not been done or even started. I would not want to purchase a horse anywhere from anybody without full understanding that I was going to have to pay a LOT more to hardship into a registry and spend much more money doing so. I dont care how nice the horse was or what price was being asked. This is just good business practice.
Regardless of the situation, it seems that somehow the horse was misrepresented by someone and a sale was made. No matter who's farm the horse came from, or what the 'intent' was, the typo is now costing someone a headache and more money, time and effort to get done what they were led to believe already was.
'Papers not yet applied for' or 'sells with applications to...' A, R or whatever) would mean that the horse is eligible for the associations listed but that they have not been sent in, but should be ready to do so.
Then including AMHR was also a typo by the auction catalog? The horse was not eligible for AMHR, until registration was completed at AMHA, and that had not been done or even started. I would not want to purchase a horse anywhere from anybody without full understanding that I was going to have to pay a LOT more to hardship into a registry and spend much more money doing so. I dont care how nice the horse was or what price was being asked. This is just good business practice.
Regardless of the situation, it seems that somehow the horse was misrepresented by someone and a sale was made. No matter who's farm the horse came from, or what the 'intent' was, the typo is now costing someone a headache and more money, time and effort to get done what they were led to believe already was.
Deb,
I am not at LKF today but came across this post on the forum on my lunch hour at work. I know personally that Robin has made repeated attempts to rectify this situation for you. I just really don't understand the post maybe, because I figure that everyone should know what pending means. The whole issue is that it is not really about what pending means because it has been clearly explained to you long before this post that it was a clerical issue. LKF made an offer to ammend the situation months ago. I suppose that is why all sales put the terms and conditions page in the catalog as we are all human and mistakes do happen. I know Robin has worked diligently to try and get the stallion owners to register him AMHR. Actually she has put more time and energy into it than I ever would have. This was simply an error and it is a shame that it may be viewed by anyone as anything else. I hope you find resolution in all of this. You do have a gorgeous mare there and she can certainly be registered AMHR just by sending her in as a hardship and you don't need me to tell you that she is well worth it.
Sherri
I am not at LKF today but came across this post on the forum on my lunch hour at work. I know personally that Robin has made repeated attempts to rectify this situation for you. I just really don't understand the post maybe, because I figure that everyone should know what pending means. The whole issue is that it is not really about what pending means because it has been clearly explained to you long before this post that it was a clerical issue. LKF made an offer to ammend the situation months ago. I suppose that is why all sales put the terms and conditions page in the catalog as we are all human and mistakes do happen. I know Robin has worked diligently to try and get the stallion owners to register him AMHR. Actually she has put more time and energy into it than I ever would have. This was simply an error and it is a shame that it may be viewed by anyone as anything else. I hope you find resolution in all of this. You do have a gorgeous mare there and she can certainly be registered AMHR just by sending her in as a hardship and you don't need me to tell you that she is well worth it.
Sherri
Bess Kelly
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2003
- Messages
- 2,298
- Reaction score
- 34
Horse, donkey, goat, exotics -- auctions I have attended all have an office. If you are at the pre-auction review, you need to go there and CHECK THE PAPERWORK. If you are the successful buyer, look at the paperwork RIGHT THEN....if not there, stop the procedure and call the sellers into the office!
I have turned down the purchase of an animal due to missing, wrong or incomplete paperwork. As a buyer, I feel I have some responsibility to check things through. Now, as a seller, I try to be honest and helpful if there is a problem. Personally, I feel Robin is going out of her way to help. The sales people do NOT guaranteed accuracy of sellers paperwork or statements at any auction I've attended.
It looks like Deb has a wonderful mare with a little more registry expense than anticipated because she did not fully review the paperwork at the sale, IMO.
For the rec ord -- TO ME......pending means already sent to registry, waiting for return and all actions will be taken to get that completed ASAP; eligible means that they could be registered with proper paperwork and fees sent, according to rules of registry. In this case, I would WANT signed forms as necessary. If I ever sell one "pending" I put in writing that it will happen within a certain time or I will refund entire sale price and pick up animal (which must be in good health, etc).
I have turned down the purchase of an animal due to missing, wrong or incomplete paperwork. As a buyer, I feel I have some responsibility to check things through. Now, as a seller, I try to be honest and helpful if there is a problem. Personally, I feel Robin is going out of her way to help. The sales people do NOT guaranteed accuracy of sellers paperwork or statements at any auction I've attended.
It looks like Deb has a wonderful mare with a little more registry expense than anticipated because she did not fully review the paperwork at the sale, IMO.
For the rec ord -- TO ME......pending means already sent to registry, waiting for return and all actions will be taken to get that completed ASAP; eligible means that they could be registered with proper paperwork and fees sent, according to rules of registry. In this case, I would WANT signed forms as necessary. If I ever sell one "pending" I put in writing that it will happen within a certain time or I will refund entire sale price and pick up animal (which must be in good health, etc).
We bought a filly once (weanling ) at a sale with papers pending-- application papers for both AMHA & AMHR were provided at the auction -- signed by the seller--
turned out neither were any good -- AMHA - the stallion had never been brought permanent -- which meant that AMHA figured that the stallion had gone over size
AMHR -- the stallion had never had AMHR papers -- so no luck there- the seller said -- sorry for your luck -- I provided application papers - I didn't say anything else . (LIKE WHAT__ if you provide papers).
SO-- we had a grade horse -- kept her til she was 3 & hardshipped her -- HA -- the very last year that AMHR allowed that to be done-- so lucky it didn't happen a year later. She was a lovely mare & won many classes at shows for the people who purchased her from us.
so -- we no longer will purchase anything "PENDING or ELIGIBLE " -- once bitten twice shy !!
turned out neither were any good -- AMHA - the stallion had never been brought permanent -- which meant that AMHA figured that the stallion had gone over size
AMHR -- the stallion had never had AMHR papers -- so no luck there- the seller said -- sorry for your luck -- I provided application papers - I didn't say anything else . (LIKE WHAT__ if you provide papers).
SO-- we had a grade horse -- kept her til she was 3 & hardshipped her -- HA -- the very last year that AMHR allowed that to be done-- so lucky it didn't happen a year later. She was a lovely mare & won many classes at shows for the people who purchased her from us.
so -- we no longer will purchase anything "PENDING or ELIGIBLE " -- once bitten twice shy !!
Dreamhorse Minis
Member
I usually only read the posts and this one is the biggest reason.
As someone new to the mini world I found this to be a very reasonable question. She clearly stated that she just wanted to know the meaning of pending, as it is used regarding minis. While a few people responded with sanity and useful answers, too many read more into the question than was there. Not only did they cause poor Deb grief over an innocent question, but it has also caused poor Robin a lot of unnessesary stress and caused what I am sure are hard feelings between these two people.
Perhaps everyone here should take a deep breathe and try to remember that what is obvious to some is not so obvious to others. Try answering questions as they are and not look for hidden meanings or implied critisizms that are not there.
The one other time I have ventured onto this forum with a dumb question I received mostly kind and useful responses, but there were a couple that were less than nice and only made me feel unwelcome, picked on (kind of like being on the outside of the cool group at highschool) and did not provide any useful help to my question.
Robin, you sound like a really wonderful person and I hope you will realize that this should never have gone this far and won't hold a lot of resentment towards Deb. I didn't get the feeling she was looking to blame you or anyone else with her question, but was only trying to educate herself in buying horses at auction. It was info I would want to know if I were ever to buy at auction. I tend to be too trusting and would probably have made the same mistake she did, although this seems to be one of those times when many things went wrong which I'm sure doesn't usually happen. It sound like you and Deb were working things out fine until some people made this into something it wasn't. Please don't let these few negative people bring you down as life is too short.
I expect I will get flamed over this but will realize where and who it is coming from and deal with it accordingly as I hope Robin and Deb will. Many thanks to all of the kind and caring people who respond to questions with sanity and good will on this site. You make it very worth while to continue to visit this site and make it a, mostly, enjoyable and informative site to visit.
As someone new to the mini world I found this to be a very reasonable question. She clearly stated that she just wanted to know the meaning of pending, as it is used regarding minis. While a few people responded with sanity and useful answers, too many read more into the question than was there. Not only did they cause poor Deb grief over an innocent question, but it has also caused poor Robin a lot of unnessesary stress and caused what I am sure are hard feelings between these two people.
Perhaps everyone here should take a deep breathe and try to remember that what is obvious to some is not so obvious to others. Try answering questions as they are and not look for hidden meanings or implied critisizms that are not there.
The one other time I have ventured onto this forum with a dumb question I received mostly kind and useful responses, but there were a couple that were less than nice and only made me feel unwelcome, picked on (kind of like being on the outside of the cool group at highschool) and did not provide any useful help to my question.
Robin, you sound like a really wonderful person and I hope you will realize that this should never have gone this far and won't hold a lot of resentment towards Deb. I didn't get the feeling she was looking to blame you or anyone else with her question, but was only trying to educate herself in buying horses at auction. It was info I would want to know if I were ever to buy at auction. I tend to be too trusting and would probably have made the same mistake she did, although this seems to be one of those times when many things went wrong which I'm sure doesn't usually happen. It sound like you and Deb were working things out fine until some people made this into something it wasn't. Please don't let these few negative people bring you down as life is too short.
I expect I will get flamed over this but will realize where and who it is coming from and deal with it accordingly as I hope Robin and Deb will. Many thanks to all of the kind and caring people who respond to questions with sanity and good will on this site. You make it very worth while to continue to visit this site and make it a, mostly, enjoyable and informative site to visit.
Riverdance
Well-Known Member
There are many reputable breeders whos breeding stock is double registered. But, it is very expensive to double register all of the foals, especially if that breeder only shows in one registry.
I show only AMHA, but all of my breeding stock is double registered. I make sure to send in stallion reports to both AMHA and AMHR so that all of my foals are eligible for AMHR. I even sent in a stallion report of a stallion who was not AMHR registered at that time, with a note that I would be hardhipping him in the winter. He was one I purchsed for $10,000 and was told he was both AMHA and AMHR registered. Come to find out, he was not AMHR registered and it cost me another $560 to get him Hardshipped in.
This past winter I hardshipped him and a mare I had bought. I sold one of the stallions sons at the World Show, and told the buyer that he would be AMHR eligible by spring. That son is now AMHR registered too.
All of my foals are AMHR eligible and AMHA registered. I only register AMHR those foals I am thinking of keeping.
If one is worried about buying a horse that is AMHR Eligible, one could always ask for a copy of the parents AMHR papers as proof that they are both registered. They could also ask for a copy of the stallion report sent to AMHR. It will only then cost $60 to register the horse AMHR too.
I guess what I am saying is this, not all sellers are crooked, many sell with eligibility status, and all one needs to ask is proof that indeed, the horse is eligible. For that matter, one can also check with AMHR.
It is expensive to register all foals with both associations and I'm not being critical of the honest breeders who just sell on application. BUT, I do register all of my babies w/both associations as well as PQ with AMHA, yes it is more expensive, but it is only $20 when they are babies, that price goes up as they age and it just adds more money that the buyer has to pay if it is put off, and even in a bad market, we are selling them for enough money to cover our registration expenses! Personally I WILL NOT purchase a horse on application unless I know the breeder very well.
Minimor
Well-Known Member
Me either! I would suggest that the seller should get the horse registered, and then I'll buy. There is a breeder that I've bought a number of weanlings from--I generally bought them prior to their being registered, but it still wasn't "on application" in that she didn't just hand over the applications to me--she registered them & then handed over the registration papers--she paid for the registrations, I paid her for the transfer fee and when she handed me my papers they were already in my name.
If the horse isn't worth the price of the registration papers to the seller then it's really not worth my buying it.
Leeana
Well-Known Member
To me, and when i say pending, it means i have the application filled out and ready to be sent in / will be sent in soon and registration papers provided in __ days. I ALWAYS put in the contract when the paperwork / transfers ext will be provided and terms. But pending to me means i will get the papers and have them to the buyer (or if i am the buyer) in a timely manner.
