How to get the papers??

[mini horse mania]

I am buying 2 mares....they are AMHA and R registered and WC. the breeders threw away the A and R papers, just to keep the WC. because thats what they breed for???? I know their reg. names, can I possibly call the registres to get new papers?? The people I am buying them from dont know the names of who they bought them from. Their names are

Century Oaks Carolina Belle

Music Mans Gypsy Roselee

Midnight Roselee

 

Help!! Id love to have good papers on them.....

 

[Minimor]

You cannot get the papers just by contacting the registries & telling them you have these horses now; you will need to have the owner as on the papers sign transfer forms and provide you with the papers. Call the registries & find out who is listed as the current owner, then contact that person & ask if they will help you get the A and R papers for these mares. If they actually did throw away the papers then they will have to request duplicate papers from the registries. Once they have those papers they can sign the transfer forms to transfer ownership to you. Most likely they will tell you that you have to pay all fees--there will be fees for the duplicate papers and then the transfer fees. If the mares were never brought permanent then there will also be the fee for that.

If this person isn't willing to help you get the paperwork then you are out of luck.

 

[supaspot]

it doesnt seem likely that someone would throw away papers that are valuable in favour of ones that command no respect and very little value AMHA and AMHR are known around the world , no-one over here would touch WC

are you sure these people are telling you the truth ???

 

[Sue_C.]

the breeders threw away the A and R papers, just to keep the WC. because thats what they breed for

Sorry, but had to ask...WHAT WERE THEY THINKING???

Yes, the duplicate papers are about $20 each, then there might be late transfer, permanent fees etc...perhaps DNA to be done...but in the end, it will be worth it if they are good horses.

 

[HGFarm]

I agree... call the registeries to see whose name those horses are in. If it was a couple of owners back, that is who you would need to find and deal with to get duplicate papers. And I agree, why would anyone THROW AWAY any papers??!!

I would also make sure these horses match the descriptions on the other papers before you proceed further either.

 

[Farina]

Been there - done that.

I have here a mare that is DNA'd and because she was exported to Germany her papers weren't updated and lost. I have contacted the actually registered owner in the US and she wasn't willing at all dealing with me. She doesn't even answer my phone calls or emails. A friend of her contacted me and I explained her my situation and she promised me to come back to me but this is now months ago. So now I have a DNA'd mare without her AMHR registration. This is the only person living in the US I know that wasn't willing to help. BTW: The registered former owner is well known in her area. It is only sad.

I would never do it again and I wouldn't buy these mares until the actual owner straighten the paperwork out.

 

[yellerroseintx]

I looked up all three and could only find Century Oaks Carolina Belle reg in AMHA RV owner/breeder DAVID H PORTERFIELD OR SHIRLEY C PORTERFIELD

the other two were not listed in AMHA or AMHR...or at least I could not find them I would google the porterfield name and see what you find. I had a mare the same situation luckily it was an "or" on the papers and the co-owner was gracious enough to send me a signed transfer...cost me $60 to bring her into AMHR including duplicate papers...good luck!

I did find Music Mans....it is listed as HA Music Mans... owner/breeder MARGARET KLOMAN

 

[Margot]

Personally I would find some other horses to buy. It might be a nightmare or even impossible to get the papers on the horses, in addition to possibly hundreds of dollars in expenses. As others have said World Class papers are worth nothing so why would anyone throw out the AMHA and AMHR papers. The whole thing sounds very suspicious and with so many very nice horses selling at low prices now I would go find some that have all their papers up-to-date.

 

[yellerroseintx]

Personally I would find some other horses to buy. It might be a nightmare or even impossible to get the papers on the horses, in addition to possibly hundreds of dollars in expenses. As others have said World Class papers are worth nothing so why would anyone throw out the AMHA and AMHR papers. The whole thing sounds very suspicious and with so many very nice horses selling at low prices now I would go find some that have all their papers up-to-date.

Good advice

 

[JMS Miniatures]

AMHR - 259914T CENTURY OAKS CAROLINA BELLE

Current Owner: DAVID PORTERFIELD

Mare is not brought pernament

AMHR - 281020T HA MUSIC MANS GYPSY ROSELEE

Current Owner: MARGARET KLOMAN

Mare is not brought pernament

Could not find Midnight Roselee in AMHR.

Sorry don't have the A studbook. IMO you are going to have one heck of a time to get at least their R papers IMO its not worth it unless these mares are given to you for free.

 

[Tab]

I am so sorry for you if you go through with this with an intention to breed these mares because I think you will be stuck unless you pay to hardship, and that costs hundreds to thousands. I have heard of people buying unregistered minis "cheap" and register with WCMHR just so that they can breed and breed and breed and sell the foals "cheap." They had been registered but the papers are not handed over by the seller. Those horses then have a very reduced value and are just adding to an unwanted horse population.

HOWEVER, if you don't plan on breeding the mares and just intend to show them at open shows and keep them to love then papers just don't matter.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Personally I would find some other horses to buy. It might be a nightmare or even impossible to get the papers on the horses, in addition to possibly hundreds of dollars in expenses. As others have said World Class papers are worth nothing so why would anyone throw out the AMHA and AMHR papers. The whole thing sounds very suspicious and with so many very nice horses selling at low prices now I would go find some that have all their papers up-to-date.

Exactly ! There are SOO many nice A/R horses out there right now you can get for pennies, unless these are spectacular individuals you are going to have both a hassle AND spend a fortune in getting clear paperwork on them.

 

[mini horse mania]

they do not care for anything but world class.... I got them at a very good deal and both just foaled to Caballo Valley king Tut, who is their stallion, so now i will have 2 foals to register also. I will contact the previous owners. thanks to everyone. i hope I can get these girls straight. they are both black overo, and will breed so nicely with my stallion!!

 

[mini horse mania]

I also did a search for the names, and only Carolinia Belle is listed in the AMHA. Neither of the other names are listed, although there are other horses with the same farm prefixes. So neither other mare is registered in the AMHA

CENTURY OAKS CAROLINIA BELLE

NAME REG. NO FOAL DATE S CL BT ST HT

CENTURY OAKS CAROLINIA BELLE A 159581 04/19/2005 M SBK - RV 00.000

SIRE GROSSHILL BOOGERMANS TAKE YOUR TIME A 124185 SBK DN - 33.500

DAM LEPRECHAUN ACRES TINKLE BELL A 94550 DGR DN - 33.000

BRDR DAVID H PORTERFIELD OR SHIRLEY

OWNR DAVID H PORTERFIELD OR SHIRLEY C PORTERFIELD

I also did a name search in the AMHR for the mares, and can find no horses that fit the names of Gypsy Roselee or Midnight Roselee. There is only one horse listed for 'Roselee' spelling. I also searched all horses with Gypsy, and can't find one.

I think this breeder may have purchased unregistered horses, and is now passing them off as having had their AMHA/AMHR papers, but they never did.

I think you have gotten good advice here -- find 3 other mares that are REALLY registered.

OR -- do you have the W papers? Who is listed as the sires and dams of these mares. Perhaps I can look up their sires and dams with birthdates and find them. It's possible their names were changed when they were registered in the "W" and the names you have are not the correct ones for the A and R. Just a thought.

I have searched Carolina Belle and found her picture and pedigree on their website...and sold beside her name, I have also found the other mares dam on another website. I havent got a response from her yet as to if she can help me.

 

[mini horse mania]

What is the dam's name? I'm happy to keep searching for you. Do you have your mare's birthdate? Hopefully, I can find the dam and check her progeny for a foal listed with your mare's birthdate.

Leprechaun Acres Tinkle Bell is the dams name to Centeury Oaks carolina belle- she is on this page- the gray towards the bottom

http://centuryoakminis.com/mares.html

HA MUSIC MANS GYPSY ROSELEE- she can be seen here as sold....on Homestead acres site

HA Music Mans Gypsy Rose Lee

Beautiful black pinto filly, foaled 4/27/2006. Double registered AMHA/AMHR. Gypsy is very straight and holds her head high. She wants to please!!! She is sired by our black pinto stallion, Grosshills Music Man. Gypsy is very striking and has an elongated trot. SOLD!

HA Music Mans Gypsy Rose Lee

Born 4/27/2006Grosshills Music Man

33.5"Aloha Ranchs Fiddler

29.5"NFC Darks Midnight

31.5"Carousel Acres Red Rose

31.5"Komokos Gentlemen Jim

31.0"Hubers Sarah Jane

33.0"

 

[mini horse mania]

LEPRECHAUN ACRES TINKLE BELL

NAME REG. NO FOAL DATE S CL BT ST HT

LEPRECHAUN ACRES TINKLE BELL A 94550 06/04/1998 M DGR DN - 33.000

SIRE MAGNOLIA FARMS COWBOYS TOPPER A 49543 RNR DN DC 32.500

DAM EQUUS MINUS PATCHED BRITCHES R 02000T PBK - - 30.000

BRDR LEE R OR FLORENCE M RUSH

OWNR DAVID H PORTERFIELD OR SHIRLEY C PORTERFIELD

FOAL(S)

[Top]

NAME REG. NO FOAL DATE S CL BT ST HT

FOAL CENTURY OAKS CAROLINIA BELLE A 159581 04/19/2005 M SBK - RV 00.000

PARENT GROSSHILL BOOGERMANS TAKE YOUR TIME

FOAL CENTURY OAKS FIRST TIME COOKIEBELLE A 150045 03/24/2004 M PBK DN - 33.000

PARENT GROSSHILL BOOGERMANS TAKE YOUR TIME

FOAL CENTURY OAKS QUICK SILVER MOON A 168384 04/12/2006 M DSL - - 00.000

PARENT GROSSHILL BOOGERMANS TAKE YOUR TIME

TOTAL 3 Foal(s)

This dam is not listed in the AMHR, so Carolinia Belle was possibly only registered AMHA?

How about the dam or sire of your other mare, and her birthdate?

.

the other mare ( filly) is a yearling and her dam IS Roselee- her sire is Caballo Valley king Tut- I believe she is only reg. with WC because she was their breeding. and they specialize only in WC.... Both of the mares just foaled,, roselee just delivered a black and white filly, and carolina belle delivered a black colt off of Caballo valleys King Tut.

 

[frostedpineminis]

Googled the older mares name and she came up in a lilbeginnings thread about a mt. airey sale in 2006, I copied this

Lot #49 Century Oaks Carolina Belle 34.25†$700

Mare 04-19-05 Black

AMHA #A159581 AMHR #259914T

Sire: Grosshill Boogerman Take Your Time

Dam: Leprechaun Acres Tinkle Bell

This classy mare shows excellent fluid movement. This one has a long line of excellent pedigree that goes back to Lazy Ns Boogerman on one side and Magnolia Farms Cowboys Topper on the other side. “Carolina Belle†is a strong candidate to make a great driving horse. Upheaded great looks coupled with a great disposition should make her an excellent choice!

Looks like she might measure over for her AMHA papers, just be careful.

 

[frostedpineminis]

Also this is the studs name that I can find that is under those 2 parents

CABALLO VALLEY KING TUTS DAKARAI , he was born in 2007 and is not permanent, I think that I saw in an older thread that if the stallion does not get brought permanent then you cannot register the babies, maybe someone else can elighten that part, but if they threw away the papers on these mares then I would be careful as they probably dont care about the stud being permanent either...

 

[Minimor]

frostedpine is correct--if the papers have expired, the foals will not be able to be registered. I'm not real familiar with AMHA but I think that if the sire or dam is not yet 5 years old the foal can be registered even if the sire/dam has not been made permanent? Once the papers are actually expired, though, that horse must be made permanent before the foal can be registered. Same thing with AMHR--if the sire or dam hasn't been made permanenet by Dec.31st of the 3 year old year the foal cannot be registered until the papers on that sire/dam are updated.

In addition to the fees earlier stated, you will be paying for late stallion reports and (for AMHA) DNA as well--and that is assuming that you can get papers on the mares & then assuming you can get the stallion owner to provide you with the stallion reports...not to mention talking them into bringing the stallion permanent if that hasn't already been done.

I think you've really got your work cut out for you on this!

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

If I were you I would back out of buying these mares as you are going to be spending ALOT of time and money just in paperwork and even then the previous owners and breeders may not even be willing to work with you and may not be the easiest to work with either.

With it being a buyers market and so many options out there of mares that are already A/R registered - I would just take my money and look elsewhere but that's just my opinion.