How to nicely explain "please geld/dont breed"

[MindyLee]

As a mini equine farrier, most of my clients do not breed. However I have had 1 that wants to and trimmed for her for about 3 yrs and thought we where friends. She bought some AMHA horses that was ok quality and 2 of the weanling fillies was really nice. However, over time 1 filly clubed on 3 feet and started to have locking stiffles and the other cowhocked as 1.5-2yrs of age. (same sire, diff dams). This person alwaysed looked to me for advice and I never was mean but informed her, If I owned, them, I personally would not breed altho cute, not bred quality in my eyes. She went back to breeder and the breeder ran me into ground and now I dont trim for her or hear from her anymore.

So now will be going to trim for a new client tomorrow who adopted 5 minis, 2 mares, 1 stallion, 1 colt & 1 filly. Of the discription over the phone, stallion is cowhocked possibly dwarf, 1 mare is a dwarf, and colt has issues. I want to explain y not to breed them and talk him into gelding but dont want to scare him off either. It dose sound like over the phone he wants to learn and understand y his new minis look like this, but again I want to make sure I dont insault him or scare him off. All 5 minis are running togather along with 2 mini jennys.

Whats some advice I can give him that might help to convince him to PLEASE geld, seperate, and not breed....?

Thanks!

 

[dannigirl]

Here is my usual answer to people that think they will breed. Especially if they think they will make money breeding. "You have some really cute little guys here, but if they were mine, I would geld the boys and teach them to pull a cart or visit elderly or something like that because geldings are great for that. Mares are good for that too, but stallions are just too unpredictable. If you are wanting to make money off of the foals, well, the market is so low now that registered minis are now being given away that once were sold for as much as $2500 or even more. Also, minis have a lot of trouble foaling and you would be heartbroken if you lost one of your mares because they can become like our babies. Also, vet costs for a problem birth can be in the thousands." Then I would wait for questions or remarks and continue in the same line as before without insulting their horses.

 

[bevann]

I sold 2 nice little mares to a family who just wanted pets.They had a small girl and she wanted a baby Mini so they bought a colt who had very little handling.I tried to convince them to geld but the father didn't want to.I told him after much discussion"{They are not cutting off your b---s,it's the horse")the colt bred the mares-they were lucky.just went out 1 morning and found a colt.(I lost babies even after sleeping in the barn on foal watch)Now they had 2 intact male minis.They became obnoxious and tried to mount the child.Farrier says they finally had them gelded, but I'm not sure.Sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

If you find something that works, please let us all know.

My 2 lines are;

1) The best studs make the best geldings.

2) You will never put the mare at any more danger than you will when she's pregnant.

Dr.Taylor

 

[Annabellarose]

I think that it is fair to assume that MOST people are going to feel insulted if you (general "you") suggest that they geld their stallion or that they not breed their mare. I also think that it is fair to assume that MOST people that are made to feel insulted by a provider of a service are not going to hire that provider of that service again. If I were you and if new clients were important to me and/or to my business (for the $) and there was no tragic neglect or abuse currently in progress I think that I would keep my critiques and/or my opinions of their horses and/or of their management practices to myself. The thing is, even if we do not agree with other people's choices, they are still free to make them as long as they are legal. Also, I bet that if an owner wanted to breed their horse(s), they would do it with or without the approval of their farrier. If you thought that the owner really was interested in learning more about the breed, conformation, breeding, etc., you could point them to this and other informative websites and/or suggest a couple of good books on those subjects.

 

[MajorClementine]

People just aren't receptive to things they don't want to hear. It's the same way with breeding any animal. I told a grooming client of mine that she should have her dog neutered and NOT breed him because he is very aggressive and has super crooked front legs. She told me my job was to give the dog a hair cut, not give her breeding advice. I'll be surprised if I see her again.

I agree with telling the people the cost and danger involved in breeding minis. Hopefully he will be willing to learn and be responsible if he has a mini that is a dwarf. Good pet but not good breeding stock.

I choose to geld Major last fall after I had originally bought him to breed. He is AMHR registered and pretty well put together with personality to boot BUT, I decided that there are a lot of people breeding minis who have been doing it for a long time and are producing pretty amazing horses. There was no reason for me to "backyard breed" my horse just because I could. I would have loved to have a baby out of him but after him being bred by various people for the last 10 years (before I owned him) I could probably find one of his offspring if I looked hard enough.

 

[Annabellarose]

People just aren't receptive to things they don't want to hear. It's the same way with breeding any animal. I told a grooming client of mine that she should have her dog neutered and NOT breed him because he is very aggressive and has super crooked front legs. She told me my job was to give the dog a hair cut, not give her breeding advice. I'll be surprised if I see her again.

I LOVE THAT! Thank you for sharing that tid bit and I agree with her. I am sure that you were right, but it is her animal and her (probably bad) choice to make. Unfortunately, I think that failure and education are going to be the only things that work in these situations.

 

[MindyLee]

Thanks guys!

I did forget to mention that this person just reciently adopted this small herd about 2 months ago. He said he went to the farm to look at mini pigs to buy and saw the bad situation and enviroment that the minis/donks was in. He asked the owner if the filly was for sale and she said the whole herd can go for $500. So he bought them.

He did say he really was'nt interested in breeding but more then less wanted to resale them. But was'nt sure what minis go for and knew something dose'nt look right with a couple of them. Thats Y he asked me about trimming their overgrown feet and a lil about the breed and breeding them. Without seeing them yet, I dont know anything about them except what was discribed over the friendly 15 min phone conversation we had. I just figured while there, I would try to inform him about minis and all the breeding knowledge/advice I can give him. I was even thinking of bringing a few AMHA/AMHR magz with me for him to look at to show him what folks really spend BIG $ on without actually saying it. That way he can ohhh & awww over the pictures of show horses. I really want to do some friendy advice of seperating them more then anything as all of them are running togather and unknown breeding is most likely happening or happened.

But defently will keep in mind about driving and parades, and if any look ok about the fun shows through the local miniature horse club. And defently about the fourm here.

 

[Foxhaven]

Sounds like you handled it well. Tell the truth and get a reputation for telling the truth - politely and respectfully, but clearly - and you will have the clients you deserve instead of just the ones you can get.

IMHO.

We run into it regularly with dogs. Some folks get squeamish about taking away a dog's 'manhood'. Freud described that as projection. Believe me, the dog doesn't care, and has a better life; as dogs so horses.

I am in no hurry to geld Legend, but he has won well and throws nice babies. But I won't rule it out.

 

[MajorClementine]

Sounds like you handled it well. Tell the truth and get a reputation for telling the truth - politely and respectfully, but clearly - and you will have the clients you deserve instead of just the ones you can get.

IMHO.

This is my belief as well. I want clients that will listen without getting offended. I fully respect the opinion of my farrier on all things horse. He has been in the game a lot longer than me and if he makes a suggestion I listen. If he told me the horse I had just bought for breeding wasn't an ideal specimen, and could give me reasons why, I would take a second look for sure. And I would be polite and thank him for the insight even if I decided to breed anyway. I don't think you should "hold your tongue" just to keep a client if the subject at hand is something you believe in. I wouldn't feel right not telling them what I saw. What they decide to do in the end is up to them but I'm all for promoting proper breeding practices no matter what species is being bred.

 

[Carolyn R]

If you have any mini magazines, give him a few and be sure to tell him how sad that some minis of that caliber don't sell for nearly what they should or did sell for ten years ago. Take two really nice horses, and if you end up with a colt, maybe you can get $500 ahead if you are lucky,after putting in all the expenses of properly caring and vetting the mare, foal, feeding training and so on.

PS be sure he knows that's not even counting the investment in the mare and stud.

 

[Gone_Riding]

The best thing I ever did for my champion Labrador Retrievers was to spay and neuter them. Despite how incredible they were for breeding, they had a better, fuller life, afterwards. With any animal, if it doesn't have great conformation, it's not worth it.

That said, I live in a redneck area in Washington where I was actually told that "so-and-so has a mini stud and she wouldn't even charge to breed to him. You should do that so you don't have to pay a stud fee. She lives just right down the road from you!" When I asked if she knew if he was even registered, the person said that registration papers were just paper... My mare has perfect conformation and great breeding. I am not sending her down the road just to breed her. If I'm breeding, I'm going to give the foal the best chance it can at a great life in the event that I can't keep it. Around here, people will call anything beautiful. It's so sad how many unregistered, messed up horses are bred "for a baby" that is just as bad.

Registered horses can be sold for millions. Now, they have to be exceptional for that price, but it can be done. When's the last time an unregistered horse was sold for $100,000, let alone $10,000.

When I think of breeding, my first thought is "Am I breeding for a foal that I would be willing to keep the rest of its life if I can't sell it?" Horse, whether big or mini, do not have a market right now. I don't see it getting much better as more people have smaller properties and realize the expense of a horse.

 

[Norah]

I think that people who hope to make money on breeding are so hellbent on the money part of it that they dont think it through. Almost all of their horses are cripple , sickly , or unattractive , but in the breeders eyes they think the horse is flawless ....grrrr

I see this a lot here in Switzerland with a few uneducated breeders. Problem is ...they are not thinking clearly if they are breeding to make money, and this mind set is also followed by making poor decisions , like breeding oversized horses and thinking the horse will stay small if its denied food , and room to grow .%çç*""++°(/&&

My oppinion is that this type of person ( who unfortunatly are 50% of our breeders ) have a screw loose , and will never be able to get past the £$ CHF part of breeding ..... often you see them breeding chihuahuas too , and like their poor brood mares they breed as fast as their body allows with no consideration of the horses health. Mr. Taylor I have taken Mich.Georgia Peach out of the care of one of these types of breeders that wanted to breed her. Now that she has gained weight and her health , she is a lovely mare , but not right for a breeding program.

If more breeders would raise their standard on their breeding program ..... we wouldnt have the problem of so many bad breeders breeding the "garbage" horses. My thought is ..if a horse is really cheap ...there is a reason , and usually if the person selling this cheap horse hasnt bred her you probably shouldnt either.

 

[Marty]

Here's the flip side:

If anyone came on my place and told me what to do and what not to do with my horses, they'd be out of here on their can fast.

This is unless of course I asked for their advice. That being said, I totally understand what you are trying to do, but be prepared for your advice to fall on deaf ears. If I were you, I'd look for a window of opportunity where you can share your advice without it being unsolicited. But the bottom line is to hit them where they will pay attention: in the pocketbook. Once they are privy to vet bills and possible loss of their mares, and how no one and I mean no one is going to pay them a dime for what they will turn out, that is where I think you will make headway. Just let them know how much this little experiment is going to add up money wise and that should blow their intentions out of the ballpark. Good luck!

 

[AngC]

The experts have spoken, now the newbie is gonna’ stick her foot in her mouth...

I think you’re going about things a little backwards. If it were my new client, I wouldn’t get in his face and critique his potential breeding program. Instead I would establish a relationship with him first. You’re the subject matter expert on hooves so gain his respect first by doing what you do best-hooves. In the process, you’ll be doing things that gain his trust; for example, with my farrier, the horse acts up, he’ll do some little thing that I was too slow to see and presto the horse is doing what he wants and I’m scratching my head wondering what he just did.

You may not even have to risk alienating your client, because some things speak for themselves. I don’t know prices in your area, but my farrier charges $45 a head for trimming (plus I tip $5 a head ‘cause I think my horses are ornery and if he ever decides to reduce his client list, I don’t want to be the one to go.) If you’re trimming all 5 horses and the 2 donkeys, here that would cost me $315 (sans tips) every 6-8 weeks. If they’re all running together, add in the potential for new hooves by multiplying 1 stallion by 2 mares, 2 jennies, and 1 filly(?). That’s another $225 every 6-8 weeks. Wow!

Instead of glossy photos of show horses, I’d bring some pictures of hoof problems. I wouldn’t take the goriest, worst case scenarios, because if their hooves don’t rot off or whatever, he may be left thinking you’re trying to scam him. Instead, I’d bring realistic photos of what happens if you don’t trim frequently enough (‘cause the first thing he might do is save costs by lengthening time between visits) and some photos of the potential problems (cow-hocked, dwarfism issues, etc.) Instead of trying to convince him that his horses don’t meet some breeders idea of perfection (if he has half a heart, he’s already falling in love with them and probably won’t see that his horses suck) show him images of what he does have and the potential costs and risks.

One last thought...
I’m a newbie with an unregistered stallion, an unregistered mare, and now an accidental unregistered baby. My husband has wiffle-waffled from no more babies, to this spring he’s saying one more baby. I’m the hold-out and don’t want to risk it again. I read through the responses here and discarded most of them since they sound rather insulting. If I took some of the responses to heart, that makes me a “stupid” person who’s breeding “unattractive” pieces of “garbage.” Of all the comments, only one had an impact and that was from the vet (subject matter expert) Dr. Taylor:
2) You will never put the mare at any more danger than you will when she's pregnant.
I printed it and hung it on the refrigerator.

 

[Norah]

Here's the flip side:

If anyone came on my place and told me what to do and what not to do with my horses, they'd be out of here on their can fast.

This is unless of course I asked for their advice. That being said, I totally understand what you are trying to do, but be prepared for your advice to fall on deaf ears.

I rest my case ...

 

[Minimor]

I dont think it works real well to show magazines or pictures of show horsesbecause its almost certain that the person will look at the pictures, see a horse that is the same color as one of theirs, and declare that one looks just like my Flower Or they might see one they dont like and proudly announce that mine are nicer than that one and then they are convinced that they really have qualitybecause if that one they dont like won some big award then their horse could surely do even better!!

I have found that people generally do what they want to do, no matter what you might tell them. If they are truly interested in learning and doing the best that they can do with the horses they have then they will ASK for advice and opinionsand the best way to get through to them when they ask for your advice to give it to them gently. Ang said it very well:

I read through the responses here and discarded most of them since they sound rather insulting. If I took some of the responses to heart, that makes me a stupid person whos breeding unattractive pieces of garbage. Of all the comments, only one had an impact and that was from the vet (subject matter expert) Dr. Taylor:

2) You will never put the mare at any more danger than you will when she's pregnant.

I printed it and hung it on the refrigerator.

we wouldnt have the problem of so many bad breeders breeding the "garbage" horses.

Unfortunately we dont all agree on what makes a garbage horse. What one breeder calls garbage another may think is worth its weight in gold because of some quality that horse has. One breeder may discard a horse for having the ugliest head goingand some people simply cannot see past a homely head!..., but another breeder may prize that horse and forgive the ugly mug because the horse has the most hip & shoulder and an absolutely amazing trot, and they happen to be breeding driving horses.
There are breeders who figure they have absolutely wonderful horseshorses that some breeding for the show ring would turn down as breeding animals because they really dont have the conformationand for them the proof is in their salesthey are selling all the horses they want to sell at prices they are happy withthese people will tell you that the market is good just now, and they hope it continues this way, they have no intention of quitting the breeding. Its trueI know some of these sellers!!

My thought is ..if a horse is really cheap ...there is a reason , and usually if the person selling this cheap horse hasnt bred her you probably shouldnt either.

I dont believe that price dictates quality. I never have, I never will. There are great deals to be had, and high price does not guarantee quality, just as low price doesnt mean garbage. Sometimes you get exactly what you pay for when you buy a $100 horsesometimes you can pay thousands and get took very, very badly!! Speaking from personal experience, Ive gotten some very, very good deals on horses. On the flip side Ive seen $80,000.00 horses that I wouldnt give a plugged nickel forI wouldnt take some of those high priced horses if they were offered to me for free.

 

[MindyLee]

UPDATE!

Well this person was super nice and super cool. I never said too much about his horses except they where all really cute and really commented on 2 that where pretty nice looking at first. He did most of the talking and said that he saw my website and really like my minis. I told him thanks and that I worked really hard at my breeding herd and never have sold anything for what I had into them. He was FULL of questions and then asked me, What do ya think of mine? I said their really cute and liked 2 of them and the donks. I said the other 3 was cute but not excatlly what I liked if I was breeding them. He asked y, and I said that I did'nt want to offend him in any way. He said go ahead, and tell me. He seen that I've been into them since 2004 and he wants to learn. So I explained the dwarfisum and cowhocked issues 2 was showing. He smiled and agreed that he did'nt like how they looked either. But he got them to save them from where they came from. Then he blew me away and asked, Whens a good time to geld the stud and colt. I asked if was interested in foals or just as awesome pets? He said he wanted to breed the stud to the donks but that was it. Unfortently the dwarf mare is approx 7 months along (bred before he bought her) and that the cowhocked mare was open. (still nursing her 8-9 month old colt). The stud is not dwarfy but the old drafty style. I said baby mules would be super cute and he wants to drive them as a team when they are older. I told him that I think that would be a great ideal and would be really neat. I told him to be very careful with the dwarf mare and to watch her like a hawk. He said she foaled before on her own and did fine. I explained to him, so has 1 of my mares and this yr I missed it and lost the most beautiful foal she ever produced for me. And how I almost lost her as well cause the foal was stuck for several hrs before I found her. I told him a camera would be a great investment that way he can be there. He asked about how to foal a horse and if its anything like calves. I told him no and gave him all the pointers I could on what to do and not do and what to look out for. I also told him, no matter the time, if he needed any help walking through it and he panics, please call me and I will help as best I can. He smiled and said that would be awesome and will do so if needed.

By time we got who we could catch done, We stood around and talked for about another 45min-hr. He showed me his chickens/pigons/bunnys/pigs. He said that I was super informational and he leard a lot about the horses and their health. He also asked about teeth, shots and wormers. So we went to the house and wrote everything down for him. We also wrote down approx sizes of each horse and their colors since he was confused on them. I gave him some local vets names that deal with minis as well as the club info, lilbeginnings, and a couple of copys of the clubs old newsletters.

It was a really nice visit and was really glad he asked a lot of questions. It really dose seem like he is interesed in learning all he can about them and right before I left, he thanked me for helping him out and cant wait to get on the computer and learn more. He even mentioned something that made me smile cause Ive heard it and said it myself so many time... Their like potato chips, ya just cant have one! I left with smiles and waves and will be out there next week to finish the rest of hard catchs. Im sure we'll talk for a long time then too.

 

[Rhondaalaska]

That is great. I am so glad that you talked to each other. I hope he joins us.

 

[Norah]

I see a lot of breeders here breeding horses with splay hoofs, patella related problems, doubble sets of teeth, blind horses, poor conformation, so bad that the horse must be euthanized after a few years. I wont name names, but a rather large breeder in USA has shipped these horses here to Europe telling the new breeder that the horse is a "Show Quality" brood mare . This mare is then bred, and the result is a foal that is far from show quality , however sold to the newbe as a "winner". Horse doesnt win (suprise) and sits in a back pasture with little to no care if its lucky . We need 1/2 as many horses as we have now. We have too many horses , and not enough people to care for them all , yet we keep on breeding , and breeding , and breeding. Those of you that are not professional breeders ... how about going to an auction and buying a foal for 50 bucks if you want to raise a foal with the family , lord knows there are a thousand of perfectly nice homeless horses that need food , shelter and medicle care . I will stop complaining about the overbreeding as soon as we have a handle on the thousand of unwanted miniature horses sitting in pens at auctions, waiting for a home , or waiting for their death. If your not breedein for show , then dont breed at all , SAVE instead ! Its very rewarding to save a horse from death , and then train it , love it , care for it , the gratitude you get in return is far richer then a shiney new trophy .