I need some help with color...

[Whisperingmagic]

I am pretty new to this forum as well as pretty new to the miniature world. In October of 2011 I purchased an already bred mare, I was told she was a Silver Bay and that she was bred to a Silver Dapple (or Silver Black as I hear some people put it) I thought this was true until I clipped her last summer and was surprised at what color I found.

This is my mare, Dandy. The first photo is her fall/going into winter and early spring color. The second photo is her spring/summer color.



I see the bay in the winter coat, although sometimes she looks like a milk chocolate color, but in the summer she looks like a slate gray color with little hints of brown but not much.

Her 2012 filly is also very confusing as she was born a light bay and now she is totally different. The first pic is when she was 6 weeks old, the second was in the summer when I clipped her and the third was taken Jan. 2nd 2013.



This is the only photo I have of her sire as well. I never met him in person and do not know the range of his color like I said I was told he was a Silver Dapple



This year I bred Dandy to my Solid white stallion who carries no cream in the genes. I got a beautiful colt, and I thought he was bay, but he is starting to turn a dark gray color. Only the very tips of his hair are the bay color. His legs and belly are white and his mane and tail are a silver color. He has a small sliver of blue in only one eye and it is the same eye as his sire's



He is only about 7 weeks old and has yet to shed out.

I also have no clue what color to call his sire other than the fact he is has no cream gene. He has half a blue eye and both his eyes appear a purple/black color.



I am just at a loss to what color they are and as of right now I do not have the extra funds to color test them so I thought I would ask for some help trying to figure out this puzzle.

 

[disneyhorse]

She looks silver bay. First foal and sire look silver black to me. Second foal looks silver bay to me. Silvers come in all sorts of shades so they are tricky to tell without testing sometimes.

 

[Mona]

I believe the mare is a silver chestnut.

 

[DixieGirl89]

Mare looks silver bay to me, as said before they do come in different shades, as for the foals, I can never tell through their fuzzy foal coat.

 

[Miniature217]

The mare looks sliver bay

 

[ohmt]

Definitely silver bay for both the mare and foal and silver black for her sire. The sire to the foal could be a max white pinto, but that's just a guess. Silvers come in so many different shades, they are a lot of fun.

 

[Whisperingmagic]

Thanks

although I have never heard of a silver chestnut Mona....

Also ohmt, the white stallion is either a few spot or max white, but seeing as his foal has neither spots nor white markings (if his legs indeed turn black if he is a bay) than that rules out both of those guess. He could also be a dom white, but the only ones I have heard of produce white every time they are bred to anything so I am stumped on his color as well

 

[chandab]

Could the solid white stallion be a gray? I can't tell if he has a hint of color on his head or if its just shadows. A coouple pics of hte 2013 colt looks like he might have the grey googles starting, but that could be lighting.

 

[Whisperingmagic]

Could the solid white stallion be a gray? I can't tell if he has a hint of color on his head or if its just shadows. A coouple pics of hte 2013 colt looks like he might have the grey googles starting, but that could be lighting.

The white stallion was born white, the previous owner thought for the longest time he was a cremello and sold him to me as such. The white stallion's dam WAS a cremello and was registered as such, but he carries no cream which is weird to me. But hard to go back and retest his dam since she died a month after he was born. He has like 2-3 black hairs that come into his mane when I shave the bridle path, but were not there before I shaved it. He also has the common molting seen in the apps around his eyes and on his genital/under his tail

The 2013 colt does have the grey goggles but I have no clue what they mean. His hooves are also white they are just muddy in most the pics I have of him and I always thought bays had black hooves....

 

[Matt73]

Silver doesn't show on chestnut (red)....Silver Bay for the mare and silver black for the sire

 

[chandab]

If by chance he has both silver and grey, they are often born white, as the combination for some reason essentially excelerates the graying process and they are often born white. Does the white stallion have blue eyes?

Minis can have just about any color and pattern gene under the sun and in any combination, so sometimes the foals really surprise you.

 

[Whisperingmagic]

If by chance he has both silver and grey, they are often born white, as the combination for some reason essentially excelerates the graying process and they are often born white. Does the white stallion have blue eyes?

Minis can have just about any color and pattern gene under the sun and in any combination, so sometimes the foals really surprise you.

He has weird eyes. His right eye is half blue, but both eyes are black. They appear purple from far away. When the vet looked at his eyes when I first got him you can see they are pure black. It is very weird, his pupils are also very large and a round shape like humans. I wouldn't know about the silver and gray. I do know his dam was a cremello and his sire was pure black. The parents to his sire was a black snowcap appy and a solid paint. I am thinking maybe his dam was not a cremello but she was registered as one and can no longer be tested. However since his sire was a grade he is also a grade. Minis seem to be the hardest to pn down color as like you said they can be anything lol

 

[Whisperingmagic]

Silver doesn't show on chestnut (red)....Silver Bay for the mare and silver black for the sire

That is what I thought. I was always told silver did black based and flaxen does red base. So they mane on a black based with silver is called a silver mane and vise vera on a red based. But I am going from what I know about the larger breeds, mainly TWH and Arabians.

If the mare is Bay and the sire is black what is the filly's color? I know people look at me weird what I say this, but when clipped she is pure silver, she even shimmers. If I take my sterling silver ring and put it on her when she is clipped you can only tell the difference between fur and metal almost the same in color if you take the metal sheen off the ring.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Silver shows on Black base only. If the dam was Cremello/Perlino or Smoky Cream all of which appear Cream with blue eyes then the colt/stallion would have to have a Cream gene, so the dam was not Cremello. Possibly she was a Grey with Cream? Also possible the stallion is Silver + Grey- he looks Grey to me and they are often born White, whereas a lot of Fewspots- in fact most of them, are born a smoky version of their base colour and lose the colour o=in a matter of days. The stallion is not Fewspot as the foal is solid- he may be Max Sabino- there is no reason that would be passed on, it can be but it is not H/Z.

The mare is Silver Bay- or possibly, but I don't think so, Silver Buckskin. The first foal looks either Silver Black or Silver Buckskin, to me. The 2013 foal is Silver Bay, I do not think he has white legs, Silver Bay foals are often born with those very creamy legs, just as real Bay foals have cream, not black legs.

 

[stormy]

Silver can be seen in chestnut or any other non-black based horses if you know where to look....hooves may be stripped and often they have a kind of mousey grey undercoat...grey horses turn white much faster when the silver gene is present...now of course this is my own experiance over the years but for me silver is less hidden then it used to be!

 

[Minimor]

If you know for a fact that the white stallion does not carry cream then his dam absolutely was not a cremello. A foal has to carry one cream gene if it has a cremello parent.

 

[ohmt]

No, silver just doesn't show on a red based horse-it is genetically impossible for it to effect the coat in any way. The striped hooves is an indication, but can come with many other patterns/modifiers.

A max white does not have to pass on any pinto genes, so it is still possible the sire is one. He could be few spot and the foal is just not showing appy characteristics at the moment. It can take years before characteristics are seen. Could be silver+grey too as others have said. Lots of fun possibilities!

 

[Whisperingmagic]

Silver shows on Black base only. If the dam was Cremello/Perlino or Smoky Cream all of which appear Cream with blue eyes then the colt/stallion would have to have a Cream gene, so the dam was not Cremello. Possibly she was a Grey with Cream? Also possible the stallion is Silver + Grey- he looks Grey to me and they are often born White, whereas a lot of Fewspots- in fact most of them, are born a smoky version of their base colour and lose the colour o=in a matter of days. The stallion is not Fewspot as the foal is solid- he may be Max Sabino- there is no reason that would be passed on, it can be but it is not H/Z.

The mare is Silver Bay- or possibly, but I don't think so, Silver Buckskin. The first foal looks either Silver Black or Silver Buckskin, to me. The 2013 foal is Silver Bay, I do not think he has white legs, Silver Bay foals are often born with those very creamy legs, just as real Bay foals have cream, not black legs.

The stallion's half sister is a cremello (same mare different stallion) that is why I am confused. But I have him tested for cream from two different testing place and both cam out negative. I bought him in 2011 when he was 4 so he is going to be 6 this year. And he is white white. When clipped he has no color to him at all. His skin is pink, hooves are clear/white. The only coloring he has is the few black and red hairs on his bridle path and the molting (he has a black dot on his right eyelid on the skin this does not bleed over into his hair, he has black dots on the skin under his tail and around his genital) And I am not aruging, but I have a friend who has a Max Splash and a Max Sabino (the sabino is a mini the splash is a QH) and both of them, no matter what they are bred to will produce a baby with some color, even a funky blaze. My whole herd is a giant mystery to me....

I have been reading up on a thing called the Dominate White, but the only test they have for it are for bigger horses. That is that only other thing I could think of that would do this. It attacks the pigment in red based horses as well as if one is bred to a red based horse so the foal will always be born white, but it can not affect the black based colors. It is like a small form of albinoism (or so it seems to me) I breed bunnies as well and it is reminding me of a color gene in the bunnies. I am going to test them all, but it is not at the top of my list right now lol

How would I know the difference between the silver bay and silver buckskin? Does it help to say she has a darker than normal dorsal stripe? The Colt also has a light brown-ish dorsal stripe but it goes from mid back through his tail.

 

[Whisperingmagic]

No, silver just doesn't show on a red based horse-it is genetically impossible for it to effect the coat in any way. The striped hooves is an indication, but can come with many other patterns/modifiers.

A max white does not have to pass on any pinto genes, so it is still possible the sire is one. He could be few spot and the foal is just not showing appy characteristics at the moment. It can take years before characteristics are seen. Could be silver+grey too as others have said. Lots of fun possibilities!

It is fun, but also a bit confusing to me lol. I understand it some and then an "exception" comes out the just blows it all back.

The colt has two white dots on his butt, but due to his silver/gray undercoat they do not show up in photos or videos, you have to have you nose to his butt to see them they blend in too well.

It is fun, I will be breeding the same mare this year to my Black Stallion who has lacing. The stallio's sire is a Pali Pinto so I am curious to see what happens.

 

[blazingstarranch]

Horse color genetics fascinate me! Here's a pic of our silver bay mare, Onyx. Your mare looks silver bay too, and I agree with the idea that one of your foals might be a silver black and the other is definitely silver black. The sire is a silver black too, but may carry some modifiers like others suggested. I see the sire has pink skin over the nose, that is not necessarily an indicator of the creme gene. Could be like others suggested, he was actually born a max white pinto with the grey gene. In that case, he could have had a "marking" or markings on his nose that indicate where a blaze would have been with the pigment. Of course these are my opinions so take them with a grain of salt lol. You have very pretty horses!!!