I need to rant and it won't be pretty but I don't care!

[Danielle_E.]

A few times we have had the topic of minis and the market, etc. Some have said they have no problems selling their minis at all. I am not sure in those numbers how many have priced their minis the way they should be priced and not at rock bottom prices because they "have too many" which are words I have seen many times in ads. Or those that take their minis to low end auctions and get a pittance for them, $250 or $350 and allow them to go for such a price without having placed a reserve because they need to bring their numbers down to more manageable levels!!! SHAME ON YOU. I am probably going to ruffle a few feathers here but I truly don't care. Through another website I, in the last year, have helped rescue quite a few of another breed and this particular rescue not only deals in full size horses but in minis and they also make people aware of horses in the hands of "brokers". In the last few weeks I was heartbroken to see as many as 8 minis on that site. For those of you who often say that some of us say the "sky is falling" I don't particularly find that amusing. There IS a problem with the amount of minis being bred that are being allowed by the breeder to end up in situations like this. I am not speaking about the large breeder or small breeder who sells minis at decent prices to ensure that the animal doesn't end up in situations like this. I do however have a major issue with either large breeders or small breeders that use these methods to so call sell their animals. When I enquired about some of the minis on this rescue site, 2 in particular who are in the hands of a broker at the moment, 2 stallions, 1 with papers and priced at $500 for the pair!!! I spoke with an assistant for the rescue site and she told me that she has never seen minis in the kill pens in Pensylvania yet, that most are taken to auction by a broker and another broker will buy them and so on and so on. Quite a life for these minis, isn't it. She did however say that she has seen minis in the kill pen in Idaho! :no: No problem with the market you say? Yep, okay, whatever! If you are getting the idea I am mad, then you get the prize!

Fogot to say, those of you who relinguish your minis to a rescue because of problems, whether hay shortage, finanial situation changes, etc. you have my utmost respect because you have the animals best interest at heart, you aren't just dumping them at low end auctions or selling them beneath meat value!

 

[misfitminis]

The "market" where I live is pretty good when you look at ads. (Maine) However I have seen and heard of situations where people can afford high priced minis but then don't know how to take care of them or neglect them. They do become a fad in areas (I think) and then they aren't so popular anymore. People do breed for quality and then cull. It happens all the time and I understand why. It happens with all types of animals. I'm a sucker for the culled. Hint my forum name: misfitminis. I can afford to buy whatever type of horse I want but I have an internal need to take the underdogs. I will not breed my horses. If I was presented with a situation in my area where a mini was to go to slaughter they would come to my house.

 

[Bess Kelly]

There are many reasons for "low end prices &/or inability to sell well" and they have been discussed to death. I am truly sorry for those who run "mini mills" in a willy-nilly fashion and those who think they will get rich on them because someone, somewhere, at sometime.....sold for 100's of thousands.

:

Personally, I have sold any I wanted to sell since I began, at excellent prices. They do not go for $200!!! My herd has been carefully selected and the breedings are done with forethought. At this time I breed sparingly by choice. AND -- importantly -- I am prepared to keep each foal for life if that be necessary. I have turned down offers of buyers and I have sent others to farms that I know have stock which is more appropriate for the buyer/seller (we'll not get into quality or registry, etc) their use & price. It's not perfect but it works for me. In past years I have successfully supported my farm efforts financially with sales.

My mares, as they age, are not sold off.......they have done well for me and I will do well for them. They will be cared for in retirement

:

: I bought back an aged stallion when the buyer was ready to move him (I had a first right in sales contract!) and don't care if he EVER sires another -- although he is and has been! I have led a blessed life, overall, and horses are a part of those blessings. Do I do things perfect? No. Could things improve? Yes. Do I find times that could be more prosperous? Yes. Do I selectively buy needed fence, equipment, etc., or not at all if funds look low? Yes. But, barring extreme, extreme, extreme disaster, all is well for me and them.

Most people on the forum cringe at the situations of which you speak -- however, there are times when letting an animal be sold for a lowered price or given to a good home is a GOOD choice for all ! Auctions happen. In some areas it is a valid method for sales, IF it is a good horse auction. Livestock sales are not that -- a good site for horse auction, IMO. That said, some owners are in undesireable situations and feel this is their only choice, sadly for all. They do not know where to go for help!!!! They are ashamed or out of control, emotionally, or financially, or both....often not by choice. They may not have a method to do more. These people need help and guidance and for them I feel the need to assist. I don't see a huge "dumping" of these animals -- the ones brought to our attention are few compared to the numbers that exist.

Not liking the prices for which an owner offers to sell is not a reason to condemn them. You haven't ruffled MY feathers but, I hope this doesn't get into a "bashing" thread. We need positive input for correction of truly unhealthy situations. This is why we try to support rescue efforts, right??? CMHR needs support.

:

 

[minimomNC]

The way I interpet what Danielle posted isn't saying that people shouldn't sell horses for reduced prices, especially if it works that they go to great homes. I think it means to address the people that breed 100 mares a year, let them foal outside with no one to look out for them and don't care how little they get because they are making money from quanity not quality. The ones that say well out of 100 we got 70 live ones so at $200 each that $14,000. They made a profit because they didn't put anything into keeping the mares healthy and don't seem to worried if they lose several, there are always cheap auctions where they can buy more. These are the type of people I have issue with.

 

[FoRebel]

I completely agree that there are "mini mills" and that there are also people that are trying to find a good home for their horses that they sell. I, for one, am a sucker for the minis that are unwanted... I do want horses with good personalities and decent confirmation though too. I have one mare that I am offering for sale at the moment, but the thing of it is that I am going to do whatever I can to find her a good home... and if she doesn't sell, she won't go to auction but will stay with us. Most of the people that we buy horses from I have stayed in contact with through emails or whatever just to keep them updated on how they are doing. When we sell horses I will request periodic updates on where and how they are.

I feel horrible that there are minis that I can't help but like everyone else, money runs out at some point. There are things that we do without personally that we don't need so that our minis can have. We have cut some costs with doing our own farriering (I had a couple people, including a farrier, who know what they're doing teach me how to do the trimmings) and going with aspen instead of pine bedding in the stalls. I still have the farrier do the minis' feet twice a year though. There are some things that I just do without (ie. eatting at restaurants... ect.). I just think that people need to prioritize what is more important to them.... Having a good home for your minis or having more money??? I'm not trying to "bash" anyone... I just believe that it is a personal preference.... I am just giving my opinion!!!!!

 

[kaykay]

I do understand first hand what you are saying. This has been the biggest year ever for CMHR. Mostly due to inflated hay prices and families that have come into uforseen circumstances. Like you I commend them for handing them over vs dumping them at an auction for 100.00 to "get rid" of them.

I also cannot stand the repeated ads that scream "must make room for next years foals" well if you cant sell this years foals maybe you shouldnt breed the mares back?? Thats just common sense.

And my big pet peeve is all these intact stallions. We have gelded a huge amount of boys in CMHR this year. Breeders have got to start being more responsible and start gelding gelding gelding.

I personally have not had any trouble selling horses but we do not breed a ton of foals. In general I have seen that the market is still very good for healthy, well cared for, well bred horses.

 

[Bess Kelly]

:aktion033: We agree! I believe that there ARE some "mini mills" -- but, don't really personally know of any now. There was a large one in SC years back but, that one has closed

:

Not every farm will use cams and stalls for mares to foal. Many mares foal just fine in the field. That said, it is the farm who doesn't accept that some need assistance and/or do not assist when needed that gets our "fickle finger of fate" award. So, for those who KNOW of such, what can be done? What needs to be done? Is the situation constant or an early loss, etc.

There will always be a number of farms who just say "I must produce $xxx$ per year -- thus 10 foals @ XX will be fine". That's a fact. Now, most of us put foals on the ground as our "crop" to help offset the expenses of feeding, etc. Nothing wrong with that! It is a business for many and a business needs to produce income. Those who are GOOD business managers know that the better the product is the better off the business will be -- so, quality is important to the bottom line. There's a positive position for you.

We are still at the point of the "I only want a pet, no matter the issues" and then they breed those issues and on and on. So, educate your buyer and help them become good caretakers of select minis.....oh, good luck :lol: But, fact is we cannot control everyone.

WHAT suggestion does anyone have for helping? This is as hard to solve and implement as, well -- affordable health care for all; social security revamping; etc. Yes, there are problems. What suggestions does anyone have for helping?

 

[Cathy_H]

I am probably going to ruffle a few feathers here

: That's not going to do it - you need a big hammer! ..... Glad to see how I feel in writing.................... I hate to see it but I feel it has gotten to the point that breeding animals needs to be preceded with a license to be followed up on. Since some people will not breed responsibly then that right needs to be taken away from them, period!

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

The miniature horse community has always caused me great confusion. Why an unproven weaner is seen to have more value sometimes than a well trained older gelding is beyond me. I've seen horses with championship titles being sold for a pittance and foals going for thousands at times. Then the price seems to drop lower and lower the older they get. Too much emphasis is placed on breeding them and of course buyers are going to be dissallusioned when the foal they bought with high hopes declines rather than increases in value.

Great thread, by the way, and not being a breeder and won't be for many of the reasons stated but it just all seems so backwards in logic to me.

 

[nootka]

Well, looking back, I MAY have used the term making room for next year's foals, but that is just for my own comfort. I REFUSE to give horses away (though I HAVE lowered to $500 for a pet quality only filly w/an underbite, to a GREAT home), and if I were to be forced to give them away or dump them in lieu of making a good sale, I would stop breeding my one or two per year.

My colts are gelded with rare exception, and I put a considerable amount of time into training my young horses and making them appealing to just about anyone. I get compliments from purchasers on how well-behaved my weaners are, and the longer I have them, the more training they get.

Sadly, as Shirly pointed out, that does not mean I will get more for a say, two year old gelding with ground training towards driving, than I would a 6-mo. intact colt (though at this point in my game, anyone wanting a colt will pay far more than a young gelding prospect, and that is the way it should be, IMO, if he's good enough to be a herd sire, he will be worth the price tenfold).

There's a person in this region that plays the numbers game. They told me themselves they had had over 200 foals in 2003, and had sold 2/3'rds of them, many on the LB sales board I know for a fact. I know they put nothing into the care of the animals (as little as possible) and sell on application (meaning they never paid an original reg. fee, etc.), with many having to be DNA'd and the like, so it costs them just dollars to feed (I saw the "straw" they had out for the broodmares and weaners to eat), and a $600 sale to them is like another person's $2500 sale.

Seems there will always be a market for those types, sadly, as rarely does anything good come of it, they keep breeding more and more b/c someone bought the last batch.

Liz M.

 

[MeadowRidge Farm]

If I have said it once I have said it a thousand of times ...people need to cut back on breeding all these foals, more stallions need to be gelded...our minis are the only ones where you can go to any farm, regardless of how knowledgeable the owner is and find a stallion, now do you honestly think if this was a full size horse every one who owns a mare would also be owning a stallion?? I dont think so! I have been lucky and have found great homes for all my horses I sold,and have still got some good prices, but then again--I sell very few..because I am to fussy as to where they go and I always fear the worst for them. I own 24 mares.want to know how many foals I am expecting for next year???-NONE...this year I had 8 and the year before 3, ..and it is NO reflection on my mares, or problems with my mares..just the opposite--It was MY choice. I dont think it would hurt anyone in the horse industry to let there mares have a year or two off from breeding and it would sure help our already flooded market. I also think it should be mandatory that you take a course on RESPONSIBLE HORSE OWNERSHIP and BREEDING, before anyone is allowed to own one. There are just to many minis in hands of people that shouldnt own ANY animal. Everything else I feel has already been mentioned. Thanks for this thread, some things just keep needing to be repeated. Corinne

 

[FoRebel]

--I sell very few..because I am to fussy as to where they go and I always fear the worst for them. I own 24 mares.want to know how many foals I am expecting for next year???-NONE...this year I had 8 and the year before 3, ..and it is NO reflection on my mares, or problems with my mares..just the opposite--It was MY choice.

Corinne, I agree with your idea that it deffinately wouldn't hurt of the mares to have a year or 2 off. I have one mare that will never be bred with me at all and we're her "forever" home. She is just too nice and she is very small and on top of all of it.... she's my 3 year old son's horse and he loves her to death. I won't risk her life just to get a foal out of her. I have 2 mares bred for next year just because they came to me bred and I will be breeding 4 next year (the ones that I have bred for this year will not be bred next year). If I find good hoems for all the babies that are born in 2008 I will consider breeding another 4 mares that hadn't been bred for the 2008 foaling season for 2009 foaling season. My rule is if I don't have an open 12' X 12' or at least an 8' X 10' foaling stall then I don't need to be breeding my mares. That's my opinion!

 

[The Dynamic Duo]

I may be only 13 but I think I could put in some unsaid words. I agree with Danielle on some of her points.

Some farms in major financial need so that could be one reason or what others have said, Mini Mills.

 

[ThreeCFarm]

The miniature horse community has always caused me great confusion. Why an unproven weaner is seen to have more value sometimes than a well trained older gelding is beyond me. I've seen horses with championship titles being sold for a pittance and foals going for thousands at times. Then the price seems to drop lower and lower the older they get. Too much emphasis is placed on breeding them and of course buyers are going to be dissallusioned when the foal they bought with high hopes declines rather than increases in value.

Great thread, by the way, and not being a breeder and won't be for many of the reasons stated but it just all seems so backwards in logic to me.

I know exactly what you mean!! That just doesn't make sense. However, I have a large horse background where geldings are appreciated and highly valued. And a mature horse is generally worth more than a baby.

Now this year, I have been guilty of saying I needed to sell to make room, and dropping prices lower than I want. However, as I've mentioned before, I took in some horses for an ill friend that could no longer care for them. We had room for OUR horses, but not hers. We had to put up pens everywhere, etc. Some of her horses are even in our barn taking up space. Fortunately for us, but unfortunately for her, my friend has recently decided to let me sell quite a few of her horses as she may not ever be healthy enough to take them back. However, I have seen some people that say they need to make room EVERY year!!! They need to rethink what they are doing.

 

[PaintedPromiseRanch]

we get a lot of flack sometimes because we rescue AND we breed... and a lot of people don't understand that. but like someone said above, whenever we breed, we are making a commitment to that foal, no matter why what when where or how, if it needs a home, it can ALWAYS come back to us. we keep in touch with our adopters and our buyers - any animal that passes through our gates will forever be ours in our hearts. one thing i have found, at least here in Arizona, is that people don't "turn in" or "give away" minis - we have had to purchase or ransom every mini we have rescued. we have had some larger ponies and donkeys turned in, but never a mini - one man, tired of feeding his wife's two minis, got a quote from "the dog food guy" and said if anyone can match it before they are picked up he would sell the horses to them... we also ransomed two off the kill truck last spring, they would have ended up in Texas at the slaughter house... for whatever reason people don't think minis are slaughtered but if the kill buyers can pick them up at auction for less than their worth in pounds to the slaughterhouse, they will do it!

as this is my first post ever and i have not gotten into the ins and outs of posting yet, i do not even know if i have a signature... so i will add it here just in case

Susan Morgan

Painted Promise Ranch and miniature equine rescue

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I just sold Sweet Tart to Canada....for a very good price... Even when I reduced it to help defray some of the import tax etc is is STILL a Very good price. I wont say what in case his new owener doesnt want it disclosed.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Jill]

This past year, I had 7 horses go to new homes. In most cases, I got more for them than I had paid for them and none were less than 4 figures (so while not an arm and a leg, none were very low prices). I sold all of them within a couple weeks of listing them. I can't imagine letting a horse go cheap (unless to a friend maybe) because I do think A LOT of people feel something's worth what they paid. Just doesn't seem like a $300 mini will usually end up in a good situation. None of these horses were of my breeding.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Hmm well this is an interesting thread.. what a horse sells for has nothing to do with the price of tea in china

:

I have seen for lack of a better term very below avg horses sell for big dollars and really nice horses sell cheaply. I

Horse neglect and abuse like any other form of abuse and neglect has no boundries. It doesnt care if you are rich or poor- live in a fancy place or not.. Horses from all homes end up in bad situations the purchase price is not the cause we are all like it or not as breeders part of the problem even though we dont want to see it.

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

Hmm well this is an interesting thread.. what a horse sells for has nothing to do with the price of tea in china

:

I have seen for lack of a better term very below avg horses sell for big dollars and really nice horses sell cheaply. I

Horse neglect and abuse like any other form of abuse and neglect has no boundries. It doesnt care if you are rich or poor- live in a fancy place or not.. Horses from all homes end up in bad situations the purchase price is not the cause we are all like it or not as breeders part of the problem even though we dont want to see it.

Lisa I read your post three times and still have no idea what you are saying. :bgrin Is someone perhaps using your login?

:

 

[Minimor]

The thing about people advertising weanlings/yearlings at discounted prices to make room for the new foal crop, I've known it to happen to more than one breeder that for a number of years they sold every one of their foals by weaning. So, this year's foal crop comes along & they assume that it will be the same as previous years, no problem in selling the foals they want to sell. A number of the mares get bred back if not on the foal heat then on the following heat, when the new foals are 4 to 6 weeks old. Come fall all the mares are bred back & for whatever reason, the weanlings aren't selling this year. I visited a Welsh breeder some time ago, and this is what had happened to her that year. She had a bunch of yearlings for sale cheap & a new foal crop due--she said it was the first time she'd ever had foals left over to their yearling year; she couldn't do anything about the new foals that were due, but she said she wasn't breeding any mares that year--& wouldn't be breeding any unless the market picked up again. So, not all breeders that advertise reduced prices to make room for new foal crop deserve to be scorned for their irresponsible breeding practices.

What gets me are the breeders who raise a number of foals every year, maybe sell one or two here & there but never manage to move the rest of them. They continue to raise more foals every year & keep the youngsters around until they just have too many and don't have enough feed for them or are short on money & figure that any bit of extra money is better than none--then they take a trailer load of horses to a killer sale & dump them there. Then they go right back to breeding and start the cycle all over again. It's not just Minis, I see this happening with certain people I know that raise big horses too & I'm afraid I just don't get it at all! If there's no market other than the killer sales, why bother to raise foals?