Is it acceptable to breed for movement...

[Seashells]

I'm open minded, and realize people have minis for different reasons....and breed for their own goals.

However, this was interesting news for me:

Recently, I learned some breeders seriously breed towards performance driving minis....And overlook conformation flaws.

They want fancy movement!

This was explained to me in a reasonable manner...

Show horses are like athletes. Different body styles do better in certain events and move better... than a mini with correct leg/muscle "halter conformation."

In truth, I never realized minis with undershot jaws/bad bites, crooked knees etc. are accepted as "driving breedalbe" (the term used)....as long as the movement is right.

Personally, I always believed every show horse (even driving classes) were respected as a horse bred for correct conformation and high standards for the legacy of the breed.

It's interesting to learn that's not always the case.

 

[h2t99]

I had never heard a bad bite, but I have heard that a good driving horse should be a little bit cow hocked to get good action. They should also have a different front end, the way the shoulders and neck connect. Not sure if that helps any, but I am curious about the bite theory!! I personally would never breed a horse with a bad bite!!

 

[Seashells]

I had never heard a bad bite, but I have heard that a good driving horse should be a little bit cow hocked to get good action. They should also have a different front end, the way the shoulders and neck connect. Not sure if that helps any, but I am curious about the bite theory!! I personally would never breed a horse with a bad bite!!

Well, this person is willing to breed her mini mare with champion driving heritage, and an undershot jaw. I don't think the jaw would effect the movement, but I wonder if the horse will have any major problems eating (when it's older). Movement is a nice goal, but in the long run...is it worth it for the horse?

 

[disneyhorse]

Nooooope, not acceptable. I personally value a lot of movement ABOVE conformation, but the conformation my horses possess must be STRONG and SOUND. A horse with conformation faults might move well, sure... but they will break down a lot faster than one that is correctly built.

I, too have heard of breeders who find off-bites or locking stifle to be negligible to breeding if the horse is otherwise "well bred quality that can move" but that is UNACCEPTABLE to me.

I will overlook some faults that might hamper a halter horse, if the horse can move well, including a longer back, a lower set tail, a plainer head, slight cowhocks, etc.

Oftentimes, driving horses will be built a little differently than a halter horse, but generally I prefer to have horses in my barn that can BOTH halter AND drive. Because if I breed, show, or ask a lot of the horse, I want a lot of quality that won't break down on me. An unsound horse just passes on further unsound horses.

And bad bites... no way! The horse needs to be able to eat and hold the bit comfortably. I am pretty good about having my horses' teeth checked regularly and floating them as needed. A horse with an off bite will be a harder keeper AND require more expensive, regular dental work. NO WAY.

Ethics are not something all breeders consider...

Andrea

 

[Minimor]

I so agree with Andrea. I wouldn't ever breed a horse with a bad bite, no matter how great the movement is. Certain conformation faults that might limit the horse in halter are okay with me for driving, but those certain conformation faults are what Andrea describes--a lower tailset, longer body, a little cowhocked, a plain head--that sort of thing. Locking stifle--no. Legs that go every which way--no. Did I mention a bad bite is a big NO?

 

[Seashells]

I so agree with Andrea. I wouldn't ever breed a horse with a bad bite, no matter how great the movement is. Certain conformation faults that might limit the horse in halter are okay with me for driving, but those certain conformation faults are what Andrea describes--a lower tailset, longer body, a little cowhocked, a plain head--that sort of thing. Locking stifle--no. Legs that go every which way--no. Did I mention a bad bite is a big NO?

I now remember the person who shared the idea of "breeding for movement" mentioned lower tailset, etc. makes a difference in performance, too. She's a very knowledgable person and respected friend.....and does many wonderful things for the care and well being of her animals....but I think the news of breeding unsound horses for the sake of fancy movement was a huge shock for me. So I wondered if it's considered acceptable, in general.

 

[maestoso]

I think that in some cases that yes, it is acceptable. First of all, when we are talking about soundness, there is a BIG difference between locking stifle and an underbite. A horse with an underbite isn't going to break down any fast than a horse without an underbite. Personally, I wouldn't breed a horse with an under or overbite but I don't consider that particular fault to be a soundness fault. Locking stifle however is a soundness fault, I wouldn't consider any horse with a locking stifle sound. It to say that a horse with faults will break down faster is too much of a generalization. I started my equine career in the hunter/jumper world and found horses that were a little cow hocked to hold up MUCH better and longer than a horse with straight back legs. Cow hocks do not affect a horses soundness, usually. You are bound to get a million different opinions on this topic. My own opinon is that a horse should be sound and healthy no matter what your breeding for. That said, a horse with a short neck, or underbite, or cow hocks, or pigeon toed, etc can be sound and healthy. If the underbiote is so bad they can't chew properly that's a different story. If a horse is so cow hocked that the hocks hit each other when moving that's a different story too. I am no expert in driving and don't know all the ins and outs of "driving" conformation, other than you don't want to drive a horse that's built down hill, and cow hocks allow for fancier action from behind. Long and short, YES I think it is acceptable to breed for purposes other than halter. You have to use common sense, and then do what you want and can do safely and responsibly.

 

[Seashells]

I think that in some cases that yes, it is acceptable. First of all, when we are talking about soundness, there is a BIG difference between locking stifle and an underbite. A horse with an underbite isn't going to break down any fast than a horse without an underbite. Personally, I wouldn't breed a horse with an under or overbite but I don't consider that particular fault to be a soundness fault. Locking stifle however is a soundness fault, I wouldn't consider any horse with a locking stifle sound. It to say that a horse with faults will break down faster is too much of a generalization. I started my equine career in the hunter/jumper world and found horses that were a little cow hocked to hold up MUCH better and longer than a horse with straight back legs. Cow hocks do not affect a horses soundness, usually. You are bound to get a million different opinions on this topic. My own opinon is that a horse should be sound and healthy no matter what your breeding for. That said, a horse with a short neck, or underbite, or cow hocks, or pigeon toed, etc can be sound and healthy. If the underbiote is so bad they can't chew properly that's a different story. If a horse is so cow hocked that the hocks hit each other when moving that's a different story too. I am no expert in driving and don't know all the ins and outs of "driving" conformation, other than you don't want to drive a horse that's built down hill, and cow hocks allow for fancier action from behind. Long and short, YES I think it is acceptable to breed for purposes other than halter. You have to use common sense, and then do what you want and can do safely and responsibly.

I understand we have to go by personal experiences and we should make safe and responsible choices for the well being of the horses. However, while breeding horses with bad bites, short necks, cow hocks, etc. all in the name of perfomance....One takes a risk in getting a foal worse off than his parents with "minor flaws". What happens when you knowing decide to breed healthy horses with conformational flaws and end up with a foal who can't chew properly, so cow hocked tht the hocks hit, etc. Maybe the parents are considered acceptable... but you risk getting a foal in worse shape. I couldn't take that risk. But that's just me

 

[Miniv]

Not going to even read anyone else's posts.............

A bad enough bite on a horse will effect how they take a bit and can even make it painful........not to mention how they eat and process their food.

And crooked legs will obviously effect their movement in time.

Purposely breeding an animal with a bad bite and/or crooked legs will only get worse over time and eventually handicap the horse. It's not doing the animal OR the breed any favors.

 

[gvpalominominis]

Matt makes some valid points and I agree that there is a big difference between breeding a horse with a conformational fault... such as a short neck, off bite**, sloping croup, or even cow-hocked, etc.... compared to breeding an 'unsound' horse. Breeding animals is never an exact science. I also believe you need to take into consideration the whole horse overall and its back ground and what they have to offer, but the goal should always be to breed for the most correct structure. It's always been my theory and belief that if an animal is built right... it's going to move correctly... and I think that just makes sense. Remembering too that no horse is perfect!

IMO, many people that breed poor conformational animals, breed them because of an emotional attachment to that animal or the owner believes they can make money from the offspring. I found that to be true in dog breeding too. "I just want a puppy out of Molly... she's so special to me". Never mind that little Molly is blind in one eye due to hereditary cataracts, travels down hill, has slipped stifles that pop in and out and a rye mouth and she now delivered 8 puppies... just like her and sold them for $850 a piece.

Horses can't tell us when something hurts or is uncomfortable because the just aren't built to do what we're asking them to... and it usually shows up in what may be observed as misbehavior. Or they do it for us because they are the wonderful little creatures they are. However, there are many horses that couldn't compete in the halter arena due to conformational faults that do well in performance classes. I also believe that a good performance horse has to have a lot of heart.

Personally, my breeding goals are for the all around horse.... to be competitive in halter and performance with the consideration of the built correct.. .move correct theory. : )

**There are a lot of so called 'bad bites' in miniatures that were caused from lack of dental care that could have been corrected problems while they were young... and not always a hereditary factor. But for off bite issues where wearing a bit is concerned... if in question, check with an equine dentist for advice. Just because the bite is off, doesn't necessarily always mean a bit can't sit comfortly in a horse's mouth...... but I do agree about the leg issue Larry : )

 

[Jill]

I wouldn't do it but we all have the right to do what we want with our own horses. Unfortunatley, there are tons of people breeding pet quality x pet quality. Some know it and don't care, some just do not know good from bad when it comes to horses, some think a good personality, cute head or neat color makes up for all kinds of bad things... All we can really do is do the best we can in our own choices and try to stand up and explain what we think is important in a breeding horse and hope some people out there do want to learn and breed for quality.

As a minimum, the breeding horses I consider using in our "program" must be registered with AMHA and/or AMHR (currently BOTH), have straight legs, good bites, nice dispositions, and be show type. If I don't think a horse could produce a halter show quality foal, I wouldn't be interested in breeding it. There's already more than enough pet quality out there and I've yet to meet a horse "too nice" to be a good pet.

 

[mizbeth]

I wouldn't do it either for the reasons above, BUT just because you are breeding for driving, performance horses does not mean you will get one. Then what will you do with this imperfect little horse should these bad conformational defects occur in the foal or be worse than parents? And the time it takes to get to driving age? If you need to disburse your herd, horses or whatever their would be another pet quality horse on the market and most likely be used for breeding too.

I am thinking your friend may have been talking about something else, or explaining why she is breeding a particular mare/stallion with off bite or crocked legs.

It is our goal as breeders to breed for correct conformation.

 

[Humhill]

When you look at conformation, it's form-to-function. A horse with a laid back shoulder will be able to have a higher headset and it pulls the forearm forward when they move, so they have more motion and can reach farther. When the shoulder is too steep, it pushes everything down. The stride is shorter and lower.

The halter horses that have those high, swan-like necks, also have the good, laid-back shoulder. That's how they can hold their neck and head up and arch the neck. So, technically, a good halter horse should make a good driving horse.

And that's just talking about the shoulder....

Now, I can definately see not worrying about a pretty head. Yes, it does look better in the bridle, but that can be excused if everything else is right. I've never heard that a cow-hocked horse has better movement. But, I've also seen few Minis that aren't cow-hocked to some degree.

 

[Genie]

As a minimum, the breeding horses I consider using in our "program" must be registered with AMHA and/or AMHR (currently BOTH), have straight legs, good bites, nice dispositions, and be show type. If I don't think a horse could produce a halter show quality foal, I wouldn't be interested in breeding it. [/i]

 


The above is from Jill's reply and I think it says it all, for me, anyway

 

[MountainMeadows]

"Is it acceptable to breed a mini for movment even if it has bad legs/bad bite?"

---- In a single word ---

NO!

For all the reasons posted above, and especially since breeding for movement is actually far harder than one might imagine -- furthering faults for movement is putting the resulting animal in a high risk category for not being healthy, or comfortable. As a breeding program that has specialized in performance horses -- as well as halter horses, I can honestly say that you don't need to have a horse that is a little cowhocked to win -- none of the performance winners we have bred or owned were cowhocked - in fact they were all Supreme Halter horses in their own right. In this day & age it is just too hard to breed a horse that is only acceptable in performance - or halter for that matter, most of the buyers these days are looking for the "entire package" and are discriminating enough to wait to be able to find it. Why populate the planet with animals that are bred knowing that the faults can be passed on.

Stacy

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Absoutely not. For me I want something that is conformationally correct in every way. I am wanting to breed for performance horses, but, I also want to produce that #1 versatility horse, and that horse must beable to drive, jump, and show well in halter. That is my goal in mind, so they must be correct to show in a halter class.

I agree breeding for that 1 performance horse can be tough, but I will not overlook conformation for that horse. I don't want that horse in pain for his entire life because of what I do this horse. If he isn't suppose to do it I'm not making him. Thats why conformation is so important.

I had this one foal. Beautiful filly, conformation wise on the outside, was real nice, looked just like momma, and momma was nice herself, but out of nowhere she was born with a bad underbite. Wouldn't get back on, ok she is out for breeding, asked the dentist can she carry a bit, she was a beautiful mover I would have loved to just show her and drive her, yeah she can carry a bit. So I was going to keep her and show her but treat like she is one of my geldings, she would never be used for breeding, she looked great on the outside, but her bite was a major flaw. Then again out of nowhere stifle issues. She locked up. Pretty much automatacilly right there she is out from my show string. I was totally disappointed. Gave her away to a great pet home. Now I learned that she may go over 38", doesn't have anymore stifle issues, but the bite is so bad there is no way you could put a bit in her mouth without pulling teeth. It was a tradgey that this happened and I hate to say that I bred this filly, but I did. Both sire and dam were conformationally fine. Bred the dam again, baby turned out just fine, 99% positive that this baby is going to go over 38", so the dam wasn't suiting me, she was trained to drive and somewhat trained for obstacle, now she is at a great show home where she will be shown instead of being used for breeding. To me thats a good thing.

 

[funnybunny]

Horses, worldwide, are bred for different purposes. There are million dollar cutting horses who are plug-ugly but who can win big purses. They are bred for their cow sense. Even if they are ugly, if they can do the job, they probably are sound. They are bred with enormous stud fees.[/COLOR] Many racehorses are conformationally lacking, but they can run. Secretariat was both beautiful, correct and could run. He was the exception, but not the rule. Gaited horses and Tennessee Walking Horses are bred for movement, and unfortunately there are horrible stories about how movement is enhanced. Let's don't even go there!!!!!!!! People will do all sorts of things to win. Ethical, NO. But it happens. Many mini driving horses have strong, ugly heads but they can move. Some mini driving horses look terrific moving from the side - very flashy, and judges seem to like that - but just watch them coming towards you or going away. The truth is that people breed for what they want. Personally, I want that beautiful conformation, soundness and correctness, plus great temperametn.

 


People have to choose to do what is right for them, but we cannot force what we believe to be "ethical behavior" on other people. That's just life.

 


You can't legislate good sense.

 

[Marty]

I also say no!

I have a mare here with wonderful movement, the kind of movment you really want to see out there. She can extend forever and really floats and looks so pretty. She is just lovely to watch strutting her stuff.

However, she is not in the breeding program at all. Why? Her bite is dead on, her legs are ok, her little face is pretty with big doe eyes, good neck, etc. but when you put her all together as the big picture, she's just not up to snuff enough for what is wanted in today's miniature horse world. Sure other people would buy her and breed her, but for me, she's a pet and not for sale anyhow.

The miniature horse industry is not going to collapse if people take a good look at their stock and cull some out and deem them as pet only. But it might if more people keep going breeding this fault to that fault and don't pay better attention.

 

[Seashells]

Well, now I can see it's not an general acceptance, but an unfavorable risk for the minis long term quality of life.

Minis come in all shapes and sizes. Still, careful thought is needed....even when breeding healthy, correct minis....like a box of chocolates "You never know what your going to get".

Thanks to everyone for the excellent input and response!

 

[bingo]

IMO breeding any horse for movement is a much more difficult process then breeding for conformation. I do not feel it passes on as easily as a nice hip or a pretty head. It is not uncommon to see a sire or dam who are beautiful movers just simply not be able to pass that type of movement on to the foals.

If you sacrificed in other places such as an off bite which does seem to pass on more often or any other issues making a horse undesirable for the crap shoot of good movement I think you have done the foal a great disservice.