Just curious... A Dwarf testing question

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Not to start a heated argument but.. lets say there was a test available tomorrow that could test for the dwarf genes or even a few of the dwarf genes...

What would it mean to you and how would you use it in your program? Would you personally use it to make sure you NEVER bred any horses deemed to be carriers? Would you use it to make sure you didnt breed 2 carriers togther? Would you use it to advertise either the horse tested negative or even that the horse has been tested and is positive (so that others know how to use him/her in there breeding programs)

I am just sort of curious how it would actually be used I know that everyone has different answers and what would work for them just looking for some info on how it can change things

 

[Mona]

OK...I'll bite.

:

If they discovered and could isolate the gene that causes dwarfism, I would surely be willing to test all of my horses. As to how I would react, my first thoughts were that I would cull all positive horses from my herd. BUT, now that I think about it, I guess I would have to say that I would first want to wait to see where the Miniature Horse, as an industry, would stand after such testing. What if every mini tested carried the gene? Boy, would we all be in big trouble if we knocked them from our herds too soon! BUT, supposing 50% tested positive out of a very large test pool, I would definately remove all horses from my breeding program, that tested positive.

Now, that said, I am not talking about a characteristic...I am talking about the actual dwarf gene responsible for producing full-blown dwarfs.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Thanks Mona that is really what I was looking for. I know most of us can agree we would love a test but when I think about it I am not sure where to go from there thanks so much for your input

 

[CyndiD]

[SIZE=10pt]I would test my herd and then where I would go with that knowledge is something I cannot say for sure. But I would definitely use it in breeding...and test the resulting foals...and sell those foals with their test results.[/SIZE]

That is IF the test, like Mona mentioned, defines who is a carrier. I don`t know what I would do about culling to be honest. I think that is a bridge I would cross when I came to it...but it is something to 'think' about.

 

[Marnie]

Can you imagine this, you wouldn't even know if you dare buy a mini as you'd almost have to assume that it was one that tested positive and the owner was trying to get it out of there herd! Just a thought.

 

[nootka]

I would test, I would disclose the results of the test, as well.

I have to think about, in this case, if it meant that my favorite (i.e., in my opinion, my best breeding stock) horses were affected and would or could have dwarfs. It would be very difficult, but I suppose I would come to the conclusion that I could start all over from the ground up if necessary.

I think on one level such a test would make no difference, as there are those that just breed anyway, no matter what the outcome, and would likely not test nor disclose the results of the test.

I do think that there are a lot of people in the industry that would also be truthful and supportive.

Liz M.

 

[Miniv]

[SIZE=10pt]I would test my herd and then where I would go with that knowledge is something I cannot say for sure. But I would definitely use it in breeding...and test the resulting foals...and sell those foals with their test results.[/SIZE]

That is IF the test, like Mona mentioned, defines who is a carrier. I don`t know what I would do about culling to be honest. I think that is a bridge I would cross when I came to it...but it is something to 'think' about.

I ditto Cindi's post.

MA

 

[Marty]

I would test every single horse here.

YES! I would very much cull any positive horses from my herd and not breed them.

Stallions would be gelded and if there were any of my mares testing positive, I would probably spay them.

I would also have the guts to admit it and not sweep it under the carpet.

I am in this for the long haul, not on a whim.

I may not show up with a National contender in my lifetime but I sure as heck will go to my grave being honest about my animals.

I'm all about the welfare of the horse, and not about the money or politics.

 

[Mona]

Can you imagine this, you wouldn't even know if you dare buy a mini as you'd almost have to assume that it was one that tested positive and the owner was trying to get it out of there herd! Just a thought.

Marnie, that would be easy enough to remedy...just don't buy any that have not been tested.(and proof of test provided)

 

[Westwood Farms]

I would test my horses, and would also tell others about the tests available, and the results I got. With that being said, I would probably buy more land, and geld any stallions positive, and move them to their own herds by themselves. I would hate to think of the alternative later down the road.

Heck, I would even be willing to do experiment studies on my horses. I may not have the best in the world, but I think anything would be benificial.

I too, hope people respect my farm as an honest farm. That is my ultimate goal, so anything is open for discussion here. Yes, I have had a suspected dwarf, and that baby was the most precious in the world. And, no I do not want to have any more. It was sad all the way around. The mare was bred when I bought her.

I even think it would be great if there were a test for a suspected dwarf, say, a vary minimal one, that only the mini experts would see the flaws.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

What would it mean to you and how would you use it in your program? Would you personally use it to make sure you NEVER bred any horses deemed to be carriers? Would you use it to make sure you didnt breed 2 carriers togther? Would you use it to advertise either the horse tested negative or even that the horse has been tested and is positive (so that others know how to use him/her in there breeding programs)

I had to think about this as what if it was a test that tested only one gene (or genetic cause) and we're promoting a horse as 'dwarf free' but there are other genes at work too? There are still (IMHO) environmental issues, etc., that play into some dwarfism. I've never heard mention age as a factor, but it is in humans, so what about minis? So, hard to say!

Regarding the testing itself. I try to be responsible - double registered, DNA/PQ before it was required, so I would definitely test breeding horses and most likely would test all those that were for sale too. I definitely would disclose the results on the sale animals to prospective buyers.

I would personally love the peace of mind knowing all my breeding stock was genetically free of dwarfism. Other factors could play into a dwarf still being produced (environmental, etc.), but knowning you wouldn't have to worry about a dwarf would we wonderful!

As for horses that tested positive, that would be sticky. I would hate to jump quickly to eliminate an individual without having ALL the research on dwarfism, the tests, where the industry is going with this, etc., in hand. And, I know I would never knowingly breed two positives together ever, why risk it? But as Mona mentioned, what if every mini tested has the gene? What if research proves that the dwarf gene is also responsible for refinement, or dishy head or whatever - what do we as an industry do then?

The one thing I am glad for is that 'dwarfism' isn't an ugly secret anymore and breeders are stepping up to try and do something about this - we're still far from a solution, but at least on the path!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Yes I would surely test- I am already claiming them "dwarfism" free- I would be very glad to put it to the test (and eat my words if needs be) For something as important as this I think you have to lead by example.

I would also not buy anything not tested or not willing to have it tested- providing I paid, of course.

I am assuming here a simple DNA test that is non-invasive, by the way???

If it were more complicated I think I would have to weigh the cost, etc, against the benefits .

 

[lvponies]

Ok...I have a question (or 2 or 3!).....if your horse tested positive for a dwarf gene and you decide to cull that horse from your herd, where's the market for that horse?? There are only so many pet homes out there. What happens to those horses that test positive? Would you keep your positive horses and not breed them? It has already been said many times that too many minis are being produced already. Just suppose that a large percentage of minis are carrying the dwarf gene. What happens to them all??

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Thanks for everyones answers. I often wonder what I would do with the test as well as others. I know we want it and it is needed but then when I thought more about it.. if there is no plan for the results not sure how much it will do?

I to would like to see what the industry does with it (when it happens) however.. I am really more on the thought that WE are the industry - sure there are some big farms some definite well knowns in the industry however I do think we are more the industry then them if that makes sense? Meaning we are the ones (the smaller guy and the newer people) buying from them and essentially keeping the business going - so I am guessing really what the small guy does (since there are way more of us then the big farms) is what will truly define how a test would be used.

There is no right answer and I guess no need for an answer yet just something to think about- with all this rain and mud not alot else to do

:

Oh and Lvponies.. I totally agree with you test or no test dwarfism aside that is the biggest problem with our breed it is a breed that is bred to breed a vicious cycle

 

[Sue_C.]

I think on one level such a test would make no difference, as there are those that just breed anyway, no matter what the outcome, and would likely not test nor disclose the results of the test.

But any horses tested, could the results not become public, and kept on file with the registries? That would be the best way to go about it, just like the HYPP horses now. The test results are right there...on the registration papers themselves. Can't hide that!

:

I am with Marty 100%, here. The colts/stallions gelded, and mares spayed. It is something I have already discussed with my Vet.

As for where to sell them? Heck...a performance horse, is a performance horse. a positive test wouldn't make a good driving horse any less a driving horse. They could simply add spayed mare classes...same as gelding classes, to the halter competition. If we cull swiftly, and HARD...eventually the carriers would be "killed" off the breeding program...and carriers no longer exist. (At least for that one, form of dwarfism.)

Good grief, even if they didn't, just because a horse cannot "Halter", doesn't necessarily make it "Pet-quality", in my eyes anyways. Go to a "big-time" Dressage show, or any other show for that matter. All the horses you see, will have imperfections. There ARE reining champions, million dollar racehorses and dressage champions with hocks set too close, or a bit of this and a bit of that...

I am not saying that it isn't a big deal...but it shouldn't be used as an excuse not to do anything about it. Look how long the Quarterhorse industry hemmed-n-hawed over their genetic problems; had they done something about it when their tests first were developed, they would have prevented an extra 10 years of breeding carriers, and fully affected individuals.

Whew...offa my soapbox now...for the moment.

:

 

[stormy]

Actually the quarter horse registry dealt with the HYPP problem in a very sensible way, phase out the problem by selective breeding over time, don't just wipe out whole genetic lines and breeding programs with a lot of good elements in an instant. Fortunately for the Quarter Horse performance horses have value, by what I see at auctions every time I go the mini would not be so fortunate and without DNA testing to register what's testing going to prove. We can select against dwarfism now without a test by being responsible breeders, why wait?

Closing the registry to hardshipping of unregistered horses restricts the gene pool tremendously, the introduction of Trottingbred and other outside lines would have helped decrease the occurance of dwarfism.

Also remember the HYPP problem surfaced in part due to intensive line breeding which also shrinks the gene pool.

I think a test would be great for the breed if results are handled in a sane and compassionate manner but as so many have indicated if the particular gene marker is common in the breed than what? Shut down whole breeding operations? Reopen the registries? Restrict breeding of positive to positive? And what about the shetland, they have the same roots, and yes there are dwarf shetlands also though you never hear about them.

 

[KanoasDestiny]

I know a lot of you disagree with this (so please be kind), but I have read at numberous sites that "All minis carry the dwarf gene" and that's how they have been bred so small. Granted, not all of them look as if they carry it, but it does have to make you wonder how the horses became so small in the first place!?! I believe that some just have more of the gene, and thats where the poor little dwarfy minis come from. If this is true, and all horses did carry the gene, how would that affect you guys and the business? If you spayed/neutered all the carriers, the breed would surely die off. But another thing to consider, if the gene is in all minis, would the test ignore slight dwarfism, and concentrate on higher percentages of the gene?

I think that this is so hard to avoid. If we can't even prevent what causes dwarfism in humans, who is going to spend millions of dollars to prevent it in our animals? I have a cat who is considered a dwarf, and besides bad allergies, he has no other problems. Infact my vet said he is very rare, and knowing who his mother and father both are, all of his siblings are normal. I understand wnating only the best of the breed, but in this case, it may just be a hidden factor in the majority. IMO.

 

[Boinky]

Ok here's my thoughts on the matter.. It's SOOO hard to say what i'd do..BECAUSE there is NO real info on how dwarfism in produced. I have followed the threads about dwarfism by the man from Little Kings and found it very intresting, however, even he said they are unsure how it is passed (they suspect polygenic comming from both parents..but not definate). he ALSO said there is NO line of mini's that they haev found that is free from dwarfism. I'd be REALLY REALLY afraid toj ust start culling "carriers" without knowing how that gene worked.. you could be opening your breed up to some very very very serious issues. Many dog breeds as well have been known to almost extreminate their breed completely because of culling for one specific gentic flaw. Like hip dysplasia they have slectively bred for tighter beter hips..if hey eliminated EVERY german shepherd that had bad hips.their breed would be in for a world of hurt..instead they are breeding the BETTER hips (still not great) for better hips overall. The PennHip study's have found that they have been slowly getting tigheter and tighter and they are known to be one of the loosest hip breeds around...

anyhow My own personal advice would to NOT jump to conclusions on how this gene(s) is transmitted and say you would DEFINATLY cull animals.. could be a very very bad way to go about it. if you can selectively breed carriers with non carriers and breed it OUT of a line..that could possibly be a much better solution WITHOUT limiting your gene pool.

Now i'm sure they will probably find that there are Homozygous and hetorozygous carriers as well.. If that does happen all homozygous should potentially be culled from the breeding pool.... I dunno it's just so hard to say and i'd be hesitant to make a judgment one way or the other. It would be FANTASTIC to find a test and solution for this problem, but i suspect it's more indepth than just weeding out carriers.

 

[Tammie-C_Spots]

I'd test and where I'd go from there... not sure. Would depend on how much of the mini population carried it but all things considered I'd probably not want it in my stock.

BUT.. I think that we are going to find that just one gene is not responsible for dwarfism but rather a whole bunch of genes are and how they react to each other when inherited is what causes certain types of dwarfs and dwarfism traits.

Tammie

 

[gatorbait4sure]

WHOA! Let's not toss the baby out with the bath water, here! Before claiming to be willing to cull everything that comes back a carrier, you'd need to find out if it Dwarfism is caused by a gene or a set of genes.

If, in fact it is caused by one gene, then it would have to be carried by both the sire and dam, BOTH giving the offspring the Dwarf Gene. This would be simple recessive, AND it would be easily controlled by breeding your "Carrier" mare to a Dwarf free stallion. Or vise versa. (Or breeding a free mare to a free stallion)

The offspring would have the chances of being: 1. Dwarf free, OR, 2. a carrier again, but the resulting offspring WOULD NOT be a dwarf.

Dwarfism would only appear if the breeding was from two carriers, both giving the Dwarf gene to the foal, OR from two Dwarfs bred together.

If you were to cull all carriers, you would be losing a great amount of wonderful breeding horses!!! You CAN control simple recessive problems by breeding CAREFULLY, and testing the resulting offspring.

That being said......We need to find out where the gene lies on that loooong strand of DNA, and figure out a way to test for it. THEN and ONLY then, can the miniature horse industry think of culling animals by using a TEST.

This can only be accomplished by providing the monies to look for the gene (s)! Here's an idea!!! On next years membership forms, if there was a box to check so an additional amount of money was submitted with our membership fees, to donate to the genetics committee. The amount would be decided by the individual and was NOT required......I bet we could start a great big, fat bank account just for genetic testing!!!