Just how much is color worth!?

[chandab]

The person that posted the ad on the sale board asked me to post this for him. I can also vouch for him, he's very nice , very caring person and I have bought several nice mini's from him. Not sure that I agree

that what is posted on the sale board should be a topic on a public forum though.

"Any one can make an ordinary solid boring colored foal, but producing an extraordinary loud colored beautiful overo frame overo baby is a task. This task is made easier by crossing two LWO pox horses. This is not for the weak of heart, but only for the serious breeder who wants to duplicate awesome color. With this cross you do stand a 25% chance of a lethal foal, however in the 20 years that i have been breeding i have only had 2 lethal foals. I feel it has been well worth the chance since I have had so many aw some loud colored beautiful babies. Lets view the break down: LWO to LWO= 50% frame foals, 25% solid and 25% lethal......When crossing a LWO stallion to a solid colored mare you get a 50% chance of a solid foal. In my eyes its not worth feeding the mare a calender year for a solid foal that is next to worthless in todays market." T. Charles

I wasn't going to comment on this thread at all, but I just gotta say something after reading this quote...

I would rather have 100% live foals with 50% LWO and 50% solid; than 75% live foals with 50% LWO, 25% solid (you can't sell a dead foal, so a "worthless" solid live foal is still worth more than a dead LWO++).

:

: I sure wouldn't take the chance with my mare.

 

[Sue_C.]

it just softens my heart a little knowing the foal is going to die in understanding arms rather than be found dead out in a pasture somewhere

God luv ya Hon!!

:

: Yes, you have a very valid point. but I have to agree with Asia's post.

I would never buy an LWO mare bred to a LWO stallion. I agree the fate of this foal is already a done deal, but as far as "saving" this mare from being bred like this again I can't agree with.If mares bred like this, continue to sell (for what ever reason) breeder like this will continue to breed them.I think the best way to prevent this I to NOT buy them!

Do the math, if there is NO ADVANTAGE then why take the

25% chance of a dead foal. Thats just cruel

POINT WELL TAKEN!!!

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[sedeh]

Foolish me! Here I thought that one of the reasons we test for LWO is to avoid crossing 2 LWO horses and thus eliminating the heartbreak of a lethal white foal. When my friend was breeding Paints DNA testing wasn't prevalent and they would go by color patterns and stallion history......producing a lethal white foal was considered a major (if not career ending flaw) in the breeding stallion. Even with being careful with color patterns she did end up with a lethal white and it was heartbreaking for her. When I got into mini's and kept seeing adds about horses that tested positive for the LWO and it was advertised as a good thing......I thought why would you want a LWO positive horse period?? Now I understand that with DNA testing we can continue to breed these LWO pos horses. I know if I had a stallion that was LWO pos I would make sure that all the mares he was breeding to had been tested neg.........but to use the DNA to purposely cross 2 LWO.......how insane is that????

 

[Sue_C.]

yet here again I see for sale
seems obvious.........

I don't get ya Firefall?

:

WHAT seems obvious? Is there some conspiracy going on that we're not aware of?

:

 

 

 

[targetsmom]

I hope people will see this thread as a chance to be educated about lethal white foals. Someone I know had the heartbreaking experience of having a lethal white foal this year. She had bred a SOLID color mare to a TOVERO pinto stallion, and knew nothing about LWO. She was not trying to produce frame overos, just nice babies. The key in her situation was that both the sire and dam were ROWDY bred. Anyone breeding Rowdy bred horses should have them tested for LWO.

We happen to be interested in breeding Pinto minis as a breed, not just a color. All our horses are registered with AMHA and PtHA. We have a frame overo, LWO mare and are breeding her only to Pinto stallions that have been tested for LWO. No one has hesitated to pay the $25 to get their stallions tested in order to avoid a lethal white foal. We might not get frame overo foals, but we have a great chance of getting a pinto without the risk of getting a lethal white foal.

 

[Bluerocket]

Targetsmom - are you saying Rowdy was LWO positive???

I never saw him in person - but I could swear (From the pictures I recall) that he was a solid bay.

I have horses in my herd with Rowdy in their pedigree - and would not have guessed that I should have to test them for LWO positive.

How do you know this about Rowdy? Please tell more.

JJay

 

[chandab]

I never saw him in person - but I could swear (From the pictures I recall) that he was a solid bay.

I have horses in my herd with Rowdy in their pedigree - and would not have guessed that I should have to test them for LWO positive.

How do you know this about Rowdy? Please tell more.

JJay

I don't know much about Rowdy, I'm relatively new to minis, but I have a back issue of a mini magazine with a picture of Rowdy... Rowdy had a blaze with the white extending down onto his upper lip. Can't see on the picture if there is white anywhere else. (picture is taken of his left side - no visible leg white).

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

WOW .. doesnt want to feed a mare for a year for a worthless solid foal????? :new_shocked: :new_shocked: :new_shocked:

I dont know who this person is nor did I see the add however that statement alone is enough to tell me I dont want to purchase from him.

I am sure some still will I am sure there are many who feel it comes down to the bottom dollar and I am not saying it isnt right I am simply saying it sure isnt right for me and not how I opt to live my life or run my breeding program

 

[Meavey]

People like that should not be aloud to breed mini´s period.

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Would like to write down alot of ugly words here right now...

:

 

[targetsmom]

As I said, I am fairly new to minis, but I am breeding Pintos (i.e. PtHA registered horses) and have a few Rowdy bred horses. I don't know that he was LWO positive, but a number of horses with Rowdy in their pedigrees - including our mare - are LWO positive. Perhaps the best example is in Barbara Naviaux's book - NFC Rowdy's Standing Ovation, a wild-colored frame overo, sired by Rowdy. She says he is one of several "cropout" overos tracing back to Rowdy. Cropout just means they come from solid appearing parents.

 

[Bluerocket]

well - I'll be durned Targetsmom!! -- I will have mine tested then - that is very interesting!!

thanks for sharing

JJay

 

[Jill]

WOW .. doesnt want to feed a mare for a year for a worthless solid foal????? :new_shocked: :new_shocked: :new_shocked:

Urgh! Right with you there Lisa! No animal is worthless and I for one PREFER solid color over pintos nearly always.

 

[Hosscrazy]

...silly me for selling my worthless solid foal last year to a really good home, and for a good price...

Liz R.

 

[RJRMINIS]

As I am sure everyone has heard before:

Color is just the icing on the cake........but you have to start with a good cake or the icing is worthless!

I could understand accidental breeding if you didn't know about the test, or that your horses were positive.... But if you do know and you are just after the best "icing" you can get then I feel that is wrong.

Lord knows I absolutley LOVE wild colors.............But no foal is WORTHLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just sent my test on my new stallion in Tuesday for him to be tested.....I am anxious to see the results. I have several Tovero mares I would like to breed him to, but I could not handle the heart ache to wait 11 months for a foal only to have it die in my arms........I would never forgive myself for knowingly putting the foal and the mare and myself through this heart-ache.

 

[TangoMango]

Wow, this topic really hits home. I bought a mare in January that is in foal. She is a frame overo and I found out after the fact that she is bred to another frame overo. On top of the stress of waiting and hoping, I dont have a breeding date on her because she was pasture bred..UGH!!!! She could be due anytime between now and NOVEMBER.... I have my fingers crossed for this little mare and myself. I dealt with a miscarriage of my only (and first ever)mini foal last summer. It heartbreaking to say the least. I will have her tested this summer to see her LWO status.

 

[billiethekid40]

Miniature breeders spend month after month of careful planning, pick the best stallion and best mare to complement each other, feed and vet the mare all year and many of them STILL lose a baby. WHY on earth would anyone want to increase the odds of losing a foal?

A question thats related but slightly off topic.. what are the odds of a "colored" foal from a cross of a LWO+ horse and a horse that it homozygous for another pinto pattern? Stands to reason that THAT might be a better way to insure that at least if your horse isn't born a frame overo at least it wouldn't be a "worthless solid"... or dead.

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[capall beag]

How sad.......My horses are worth so much more to me than the color they are or what they can produce.

I guess for some $$$$ means everything?

It is a free world .........just sounds so harsh and lacking any compassion for a living, breathing animal to be seen as such.

Not my cup of tea that is for sure but probably not uncommon and it is true clearly there is a demand for this 'type' or he wouldn't be doing it. :no:

 

[Minimor]

I'm with those of you that don't see how 50% overo 25% solid and 25% dead can possibly be better than 50% overo & 50% solid. Oh, yeah, some of those scammers will make offers on dead critters won't they????

With the odds for color being no better with LWO+ x LWO+ than LWO+ x LWO- I have no idea why anyone would deliberately risk a foal's life.

Solid color foals worthless? Not in my books! I have nothing at all against the loud colored pintos, but I do not own a pinto (other than one minimally marked one that no one realizes is pinto unless they stand on their heads to look at his underside. By this time next week he will be a gelding so he will not be passing on color even if he is LWO+ ) and probably will never go out & buy one now. I have, however, bought solids. Of all the things I look for when buying a horse--color is at the bottom of the list.

Would I buy a LWO mare that is in foal to a LWO stallion? No. While I agree that I would like to see that a lethal white foal dies an easy, quick death by the needle, rather than have it die of colic out in the field (how many times have we heard someone say "I thought it was a lethal white foal so I just left it"--sorry, if I had such a foal born I'd make darned sure I did what I could to help it, and if it became apparent that it was a lethal white foal I'd euthanize it rather than just leave it out there to die an awful, painfilled death by colic...) I would prefer to spare myself the heartbreak of dealing with that foal & then the mare's loss. I realized a long time ago that I cannot save all the suffering, abused and neglected animals in this world. Sadly, buying this mare will only encourage the seller to breed more the same way, so it's kind of a non-solution problem.

Actually when I first read this thread I had no idea it was referring to the LB saleboard--I wondered if it did, but thought it could just as easily have been some other board. I didn't bother to go look it up. And no, the words "here's another ad..." did not tell me that it was "here" as on the LB board. Here an ad, there an ad--"here" could be here's an ad on this board, or here's an ad in the magazine I have open in front of me on the desk.

 

[JaniceZ]

I probably sound stupid, but i need to know, What is LWO??

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

[Songcatcher]

I probably sound stupid, but i need to know, What is LWO??

Thanks for clearing this up.

LWO is the abbreviation for Lethal White Overo. It is the gene that produces Frame Overos. However, a horse may carry the gene and not visibly show the Frame pattern. When a horse inherits two copies of the gene and is homozygous, it has a problem in the intestines and cannot pass manure.

When a foal is homozygous for LWO, it is solid white or nearly solid white. HOWEVER, a foal can be a maximum expression Sabino or Splash and also be solid white. It is important to NOT rush to judgement when a foal is born and euthanize a foal which might NOT be a Lethal White.