LB members who wanted the vote....

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This part is fact so no need to bicker about procedure being followed and others not knowing or telling the truth about it - it has already been presented as fact by someone who knows the AMHA president.
bingo - I was referring to more than one instance as I saw it at the time. No matter - in the future I will collect screen caps and take notes.

Maybe you should be taking notes - I am NOT the one that posted the 5% showing - so I can not answer your question.
Lisa - I never said you were the one who said that - I did not attach your name to the question. It was a general question - not directed at anyone in particular. Anyone can answer it.

So are you saying because Jody said it, it was correct, and we were not?
No - I said nothing of the sort - but feel free to put words in my mouth. I said that things were not necessarily always what they were said to be. Sometimes - *gasp* - the accusations were not completely accurate.

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but I think Jody may even agree(or not) , that she has been wrong in the past, and yes, Mike Want, President of the AMHA even himself said proper procedure NOT followed!!
Sorry to burst your bubble - but where did I EVER say that AMHA always followed the rules? Where? Or that they were always right? Where? Nowhere. But go ahead - call me a liar. *shrug*

*memo to self - take notes or else anything you say and any thoughts/opinions/concerns you have will be suspect/ridiculed*

Perhaps YOU would like to explain to us exactly what was done incorrectly and why?? Something more solid than saying it was done incorrectly?? Why do you say that? Because "someone" else said it was done incorrectly, or because you know for fact it was? If due to fact, please spell it out for us, as I would love to hear what was incorrect about the way it was done??
Why so defensive - rambling - and so up in my face? Where did I say that anything was done incorrectly? I didn't. I asked what protocol was followed - if it was the one that Jody outlined... if it was done according to the established time parameters.... if all the Is were dotted and Ts were crossed in the right format. I did NOT say it was done incorrectly. Once again - please stop putting words in my mouth. I just suggested that when some are concerned about the way rules need to be followed - that they need to make sure they have done so to begin with - so nothing can be called out of order. You know - set the example. What is wrong with that suggestion?

Mona, you said...

So you see, they have set precedent in doing so, by not following the rules, so all we ask is the same chnce.
Does this not sound as if you feel you can likewise not follow procedure and it does not matter? That it is okay? I disagree. If you do not demonstrate how you think things need to be done - as you hinted there ^^^ that the correct procedure was not followed (but I have no way of knowing that) - especially when you have maintained (rightly) that the correct procedure always be followed... then it is merely the pot calling the kettle black and your arguments and concerns may be diminished.

Do as I say and not as I do - or see what I say and how I do it... there is a difference.
 
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Tagalong - Go back and read your post - yes you put my name Lisa( in bold) - so that question was directed at me.
 
Lisa - I did read my post. Here is that section... I bolded your name (as is proper etiquette on most boards) for that first paragraph... as it started out directed at you.

Lisa - with all due respect - there will always be something that you decide is wrong with AMHA - you ignore anything else. You usually do not like any answers you get. You do not insist that AMHR share the information that you have demanded of AMHA... you do not get irate about any AMHR decisions that have not had input from all the members etc. ...you do not get outraged about measuriing inadequacies in AMHR. There only seems to be one target here - when there is much to be worked on with both registries. Some are so focussed on "outing" anything and everything that they perceive to be wrong with AMHA - that AMHR could declare a height change of 2" as per the decision of the board - and the anti-AMHA crusaders would not bat an eye.
...and then I drifted into general territory. The YOU is not specifically YOU/Lisa. It is YOU as in whoever is reading... I shall take great care to make that much clearer in the future and not type/post as fast as I did earlier. The question was not directed at you and you alone.

I am not saying you should not speak up and share your concerns but you must also respect the concerns and opinions of those of us who can take a step back and see both sides of an issue and the problems in both registries... that is not always the case.
Where did you get the statistics that less than 5% of AMHA members show? Please share the link - I am curious because I would have guessed that it was more than 5%... and I would like to read it for myself. Thanks!
So I just went back in the thread - and it was McBunz who brought up that 5%. So you may now consider that last YOU as a YOU/McBunz I guess...

And when I am compelled to defend/explain every phrase/word I use (or have not used in some cases)... it is time to go out to the barn, check on the horses - and see the end of this long day...
 
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Posted by the C.A.R.E Group

Neil......

"May I ask why you sent your personal proposal to a director to be brought up at a meeting rather than submitting it to a Bylaws Committee and let them handle it as a Bylaw change, proposal or amendment.

Answer: Members do not send bylaw amendments to the Bylaw Committee, the office staff does this.

Neil said "I am, however, a member and as a member I have always had a latest copy of the Official Rule Book. I always kept in the folder. I carried it with me to shows along with all my horse entiies information. I never know when I will need to look up a rule procedure."

Neil,

Since you always have a copy of the latest Rule Book with you, please tell me where you find in the Rule Book that members should send rule bylaw amendments to the Bylaw Committee. You seem so sure of this procedure, I would like to know just where you found this procedure in the Rule Book. I can't find it.

The Flow Chart for Rule Changes says "Annual Meeting Preceeding YR of Study--deadline for submitting all proposed rule changes. Submitted to AMHA Headquarters" next step Staff Review-for Economic Impact, Computer programing requirements, Office Administration Requirements, Legal Liability implications. Next step--Deadline of February 1, for Office to submit rule proposals and staff comments to Show Rules, Rules and Regulations and Bylaw Committees.

Article XIX, Amendment of Bylaws states, "To be eligible for consideration by the Bylaws Committee A Bylaw change proposal or amendment must be presented in writing and signed by the originator in accordance with Article VI, Section 4-E. All proposed Bylaw amendments shall be reviewed by Staff, Executive Director (if applies) and then passed with an impact statement to the Bylaws committee.

Article VI, Section4, states "Proposals to amend a Bylaw, amend the Articles of Incorporation or dissolve the corporation may be proposed at an Annual Meeting and voted upon at the next Annual Meeting. Proposals to amend a Bylaw, amend the Articles of Incorporation or dissolve the corporation may be made by a petition signed by at least five (5) percent of the voting members as of April 1st preceeding the meeting, or by a majority of the Board of Directors, and notice of such proposal shall be published in the Miniaure Horse World or by mail to all members at least sixty (60) days prior to the next Annual Meeting or special meeting etc."

Article XVI Amendment of Rules states (in part) "To be eligible for consideration by a standing committee a rule change proposal or amendment must be presented in writing and signed by the originator prior to the adjournment of the AMHA National Convetion. All proposed amendments will be reviewed by staff, Executive Director, and then passed on with an impact statement to the appropriate committee(s) for evaluation. The effective committees will then review the proposed changes and work them in appropriate legal terms, etc"

These bylaws were the ones the CARE group studied and followed when we sent our bylaw amendment for mail/internet voting to the Directors. No where in the Rule Book could we find, as you said, that we should have sent the amendment to the Bylaws Committee. All rules we could find stated that the Office staff would review the amendment and make impact comments and sent the amendment and comments on to the Bylaws Committee.

Now to answer questions anyone may have as to why we sent our amendment to the Directors. The deadline had passed to submit a bylaw amendment before the close of the annual meeting. The only options left for us was to follow were:

(1) Article VI, Section 4 E, Special Measures which contains the wording , "or by a majority of the Board of Directors." When reading this bylaw as printed above, the board is given the power to make amendments by a majority vote. We asked the Board to use their power to vote to send our proposal to the members at the 2009 Annual meeting for a vote to allow mail/internet voting.

(2) We also followed the Bylaw Article V, Section 3, Powers of the Board, which states (A) "The Board of Directors shall have the power and authority to make, amend, repeal, and enforce such rules and regulations, not contrary to law, the Articles of Incorporation or these Bylaws, as they deem expedient and necessary concerning the conduct, management and activities of the Association, etc"

The reason we sent our proposed amendment to the directors was because we were asking them to use the power the bylaws give them to vote to send our proposal on to the Annual Meeting and allow the membership to have the final decision on allowing voting by mail ballot or by internet vote.

Our proposal was well written, it gave rational for implementation of the vote, date, method, and it also gave a means for defraying cost to AMHA. Because we were well informed of the rules we knew that bylaw amendments do not go from members to the Bylaws committee. By sending the proposal to the directors several weeks before the June Board meeting we expected the directors and office staff attending the meeting to have had plenty of time to do necessary studies and impact statements before submitting the amendment to the Bylaws Committee at that meeting.

Neil said, "As members I feel that the CARE group should have made sure they had copies of the Rule Book or at least made sure they read it online or the AMHA web page. At some point members need to stand up and take responsibility for themselves and stop relying on others and blaming others for their short comings."

Neal, now that we have explained our procedure in submitting the amendment maybe you and others can understand that we did follow the rules to the letter. The CARE group has become very knowledgeable of the AMHA rules. We have some experienced advisors both with knowledge of the rules, and in the legal system.. Our group wants nothing more than to have the rules enforced, as our bylaws require, for all members including the directors.

Just a note concerning the directors vote to allow a 1/4 inch protest measurement for all height divisions at the shows. Refer back to the bylaw Article V, Section 3 (A) which states, "The Board of Directors shall have the power and authority to make, amend, repeal, and enforce such rules and regulations, NOT CONTRARY TO LAW, THE ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION, OR THESE BYLAWS" There are several bylaws that state that the AMHA Miniature Horse must measure 34 inches and under at the base of the last hairs of the mane to meet the requirements to be registered with the Association. The 1/4 inch protest measurement is in conflict with all these bylaws.

This is another reason for the concern the CARE group has for the directors not enforcing the rules.
 
Tagalong- lead a horse to water- or in this case a whole herd- can't make 'em drink-
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I believe you are now in that zone
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- Some are just going to plod happily (or unhappily) along and hold steady no matter how it's handled or attempts are made to be logical and responsible.

Reason in this case has failed, I'd just let them play in their mud pit and stop trying to help 'em out.

If it really matters, and it's not just a "OMG they don't play fair and are Wrong and are So mean, I Hates them AMHA!!" then they will do what is needed and figure it out and try to get this approved.

In the mean time-
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- Have some popcorn, or can I offer you a refreshment?
 
Some are just going to plod happily (or unhappily) along and hold steady no matter how it's handled or attempts are made to be logical and responsible. Reason in this case has failed, I'd just let them play in their mud pit and stop trying to help 'em out.
THAT was un-called for and pretty danged RUDE...
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Did you actually take the time to READ Adie's last post, or were you is such a dither to get that smart-a** post written that you just didn't have a moment to spare?? Let's sit back and breathe for a second.
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For some unknown reason, any time we members question the organizations it brings the claws out on some of the other members. Remember folks, we are all here for the same reason. We love our horses, we want to help make life a little easier for each other, not make snotty remarks at each other's expense. A good adage to use in the "net", is to think of what you would say...were you sitting down beside the person to whom you are about to say it to... I am sure that things wouldn't get so out of hand, tember-wise, if that were done more often.

That said, I am already with Adie and the "CARE" bunch in their "mud-pit" if that is what it will take to get this proposal in front of the Committee.
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Have some popcorn, or can I offer you a refreshment?
A refreshment?

As in a tasty beverage? Yes, please .... I'll have mine frozen and salted.

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*slurp*

*slurp*

*slurp*

*slurp*

Aaaaaah... that's better. Thanks, spotted pony girl...
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For some unknown reason, any time we members question the organizations it brings the claws out on some of the other members.
Some unknown reason? Hardly. It is the way such questions have been brought up that bothers people. The way we must all agree word for word with some who get overwrought or we are lying or suspect in some way. The way some answers are demanded, provided, then rejected and demanded again. The way that some have turned even the mildest question into an OMG!! BLOWTORCHING PUPPIES!! kind of thread. The way that discussion must only include one set of opinions at times. And a narrow focus. And don't you even dare suggest otherwise.

The actual questions addressed to the organization are not necessarily the issue. Some of them may be very valid - it is the delivery that gets muddled...

But even a heated discussion on this board is mild compared to what goes on there elsewhere. And no - I have not typed anything here in all the years I have been on this forum that I would not say calmly to someone's face...

Did you actually take the time to READ Adie's last post, or were you is such a dither to get that smart-a** post written that you just didn't have a moment to spare??
Who is Adie? McBunz?
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That was a bit rude itself, you know. Just sayin'...
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Speaking only for myself - I read every post in a thread... before I comment. Which it is obvious not all do - or else they would actually note that many of us have expressed concerns as well...

ETA: Tango - the smug assertions that we need to read the Rulebook are out of place. Again - you are snidely declaring that anyone who is not in total agreement with you is stupid. That would be wrong.

As an aside - I have received several PMs about all this over the past few days. Some members here are unhappy with the way the AMHA inquisition is being run - not necessarily with the content of the questions as things need to be addressed - but the technique that some have displayed - for want of a better word. Why do they not speak up ? Because when the board Admin is involved they are loathe to say anything.... and what is the point? You will just get told that you need to read the rulebook or that you are stupid or mistaken, have words attributed to you that you never said.... have it suggested that you are a liar... and so on. Can't say as I blame them for wanting to avoid all that...

BTW - we all care. Not just C.A.R.E.
 
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Spotted Pony Girl - it would appear that you are now in "That Zone" you speak of. I would suggest that you sit down and read the AMHA rulebook. You might be surprised at what you find.

Nikki
 
Some unknown reason? Hardly. It is the way such questions have been brought up that bothers people. The way we must all agree word for word with some who get overwrought or we are lying or suspect in some way. The way answers are demanded, provided, then rejected and demanded again. The way that some have turned even the mildest question into an OMG!! BLOWTORCHING PUPPIES!! kind of thread. The way that discussion must only include one set of opinions at times. And a narrow focus. And don't you even dare suggest otherwise.
The actual questions addressed to the organization are not necessarily the issue. Some of them may be very valid - it is the delivery that gets muddled...

Hmmm perhaps looking at your own sometimes funny sometimes true and sometimes snide and condescending answers whens your own opinion is not the popular one on a thread might be in order here.

It is easier to take someones advice when it is not the pot calling the kettle black so to speak.
 
SueC and Tango-

My replies were Only in reference to the few who are Not being productive. My rudeness was purposeful in a sarcastic manner, and was directed to Tagalong as a more of a snark between us at her obvious head banging and frustration.

Though I am truly sorry it offended any of you, I still feel it needed to come out.

There are Many people on here who have made valid and strong points, and I would hope they would not take this to heart and be upset. There are others who are simply stirring the pot and behaving as poorly as I just did. (That was the idea behind the sarcasm.)

This issue has turned into a mud pit- and yes, I believe I did hop on in- but I never was one to mind getting muddy. I do however post much of this in a humorous mode-

If you notice, I did Not oppose or take a hit against CARE- My point all along in here has been if it matters, take a stand and Do something. I truly dislike the way the OP brought this about, it has set the stage in a truly negative manner.

Many of the folks on here are wonderful and have done a tremendous amount for the reg AMHA, and I feel, are getting body slammed for any response they make.

And yes, I have read every post- All of them, and did some digging and pulled up alot of the garbage we have been though on here-

I still think this could have been presented Much better and not ended up "Bringing the Claws out" so to speak- There will always be heat when it comes to things people care about- But I feel that it sure doesn't have to become a Bash feast of people who spend their own time to make this Registry work.

My apologies to those whom I offended who were only just passing though!
 
Hmmm perhaps looking at your own sometimes funny sometimes true and sometimes snide and condescending answers whens your own opinion is not the popular one on a thread might be in order here.
It is easier to take someones advice when it is not the pot calling the kettle black so to speak.
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Having one's opinion be the popular one in a thread is not the point. Having a variety of opinions or insights on a topic is vital to any discussion.

And it is easier to respect someone's opinion when they are not sneering at you or all up in your face about things you never said...

I am not giving advice - just offering my concerns/thoughts. As ALL of us do.

I truly dislike the way the OP brought this about, it has set the stage in a truly negative manner.
And that is the issue many of us have had with most of these threads.... the way things have been presented.

Often in a sensational way (see: Puppies, blowtorching) as opposed to a thoughtful and measured way that invites discussion.

Neal, now that we have explained our procedure in submitting the amendment maybe you and others can understand that we did follow the rules to the letter.
I wish you had said that to start with... why the suggestion that you did not need to follow the rules because AMHA has not always done so? If as we have said - all the Is were dotted and the Ts crossed in the right way in the right time frame, then the director(s) who dropped the ball need to address the reason(s) why said ball was dropped...

McBunz - I would really like the link to where it says that only 5% of AMHA members show... stats like that are always interesting...

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Tagalong- no no not blowtorching puppies- *Kicking Kittens* much catchier eh?

Off topic here, but I had a dear friend who when presented with a hysterical horse owner later told me she felt as if she was being accused of kicking kittens and puppies for fun. We both had a giggle.

Back on topic.

Yeah I think we went passed muddled awhile ago- as I said- but I'm happy to announce I am a black kettle and not some holier critter.

I have no problem being unpopular- I do have a problem being herded into a thought process by a sensational start guided towards getting everyone all stirred up.

I think that this whole fiasco has caused many very very wonderful people to look at what should be a well supported and needed proposal- to consider it a complete mess.

That's pretty upsetting to me- and again, I stress, it's not the Proposal, it's the manner in which it, and the subsequent set back was seemingly handled.

I did take some time to browse the rule book when this whole thing blew up the first time, and did again recently. I believe the above statement pretty much sums up my thoughts and support on the matter.
 
Reading harder what Mary Lou, Mona and Lisa are saying -- for the record, I do not think any posters here are actively trying to "hide" something. I just think some facts are presented here and on other threads and people react without seeing the entire story. People state the situation from their perspective which is not usually the full and entire story (and this goes for everything, not just this political stuff). I do not think it's out of an INTENTION to hide things or mislead.
When I'm doing something that involves business (which I think this could equate to, as far as the process that one must go through), I just never assume I will be granted the same exceptions favored on the "pets". Why would I when I am trying to get something done that I feel may not be showered with instant acceptance? In my experience, those situations do require doing it by the book so as not to have it turned away without an honest chance. This way of doing stuff isn't something I came by because things always sailed through on easy street from day one.

I understand -- it's not fair. No, of course not when exceptions seem to be made for a few at the whims of a few. But when "you" see the way something truly IS, stop acting like it's how it SHOULD BE.
Well said Jill!

If your going to fight the SYSTEM do it BY THE BOOK. In so much as copy pages, highlight applicable verbage, send everything via US mail delivery signature/date required. If denied KEEP SUBMITTING you have to wear them out and prove that your request is worthy and your willing to put AS MUCH TIME AND ENERGY AS IT TAKES to get it done.

Just my 2 cents................................................ for what it's worth. If your a member you should be able to vote without attending the meeting PERIOD!
 
Off subject - Tagalong and Spotted Pony Girl - I take GREAT OFFENSE in talking about Blow torching Puppies and Kicking Kittens - Whether it is just a saying or just a joke - I DON'T LIKE IT! I do not think things like that need to be on this board in any way shape or form. That is my opinion.
Lisa - I apologize if you found blowtorching puppies to be offensive. It is a saying that is used all over the place to describe taking a sensationalist approach to something as opposed to a more measured approach. In my opinion, some of these AMHA threads have leaned that way at times - and then the very valid concerns expressed within may get lost along the way.

On subject - Tagalong and Spotted Pony Girl - how could either one of you complain about how this was brought up or any post - after the RUDE and SNIDE remarks you have both made? That is my opinion.
Lisa - I may have had concerns about how some of these matters were presented - or asked for clarification on something that was said that seemed to be contradictory. My main concern was that C.A.R.E.'s concerns be presented as per the rules... by the book... as others have also said. So that all those Is were dotted and Ts were crossed and there would be no loopholes in the process that would prevent their valid complaints from being heard.

If I have gotten a bit snarky at times - I am far from the only one. Two wrongs do not make a right, though.... and I'll try to ignore personal comments in the course of these threads and not reply in kind... refer to the post and not the poster.

If your going to fight the SYSTEM do it BY THE BOOK. In so much as copy pages, highlight applicable verbage, send everything via US mail delivery signature/date required. If denied KEEP SUBMITTING you have to wear them out and prove that your request is worthy and your willing to put AS MUCH TIME AND ENERGY AS IT TAKES to get it done.
Exactly right, Whitney.
 
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And this new tread isn't a sensationalist approach.. ?????????? It sure got everyones attention didn't it.. Yeah Ed Sisk...Now maybe something

will be done about the measuring problems.. Now who wants the vote... ????????????
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:yeah
 
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