Looking for Herd Guard Advice

[jsites]

We recently purchased a new larger farm that is deeper in the mountains. It's gorgeous and I love it but I'm worried about predators. I know that bear and coyote are more common there. I was also told of a "black panther" sighting on the property (I'm not sure if I believe that) Anyhow I want to get a dog to guard my minis. But I have lots of questions. Which is the best breed? I've read about Great Pyrenees but am I overlooking breeds? Is it better to get two dogs? What do I look for as far as training? Should I get the dog now or after we move? My first thought was that I would like for the dog to be older and ready to work when we move. Then I worried that if I raised it on the old farm he might run away or wonder when we move.

Lots of questions....I'm really clueless when it comes to this topic and I want to make a wise choice.

Thanks

 

[Mona]

Both breeds are EXCELLENT with the horses. I have owned both breeds, and loved each for their own reasons. The Pyrs have a real heavy thick coat which will get matted and if burrs are around, will be even worse. I found our Pyr LOVED to bark all night long, and at nothing....just barked a constant low pitched bark I am guessing to alert intruders of his presence. The Anatolian did not bark all the time, only if there was something to bark at. I ended up rehoming both, as I just could not keep them on our own property. They would get under the fencing and roam further onto neighbors property, and we have 40 acres of our own! The Pyr would go across the pasture to the neighbors, and keep him awake all night barking over there! BUT, as I said, they were both excellent Livestock Guardian Dogs. I really miss having them here and watching them intermingle with my horses out there.

 

[Kilkenny Farms]

We have two Great Pyrenees with our minis and I just love them. They are gentle to the horses, especially the foals. I have seen the horses be mean to them, occasionally, and the dogs never retaliate. And, for some reason they just don't seem to put off predator vibes to the horses. I have brought horses in here that have never been exposed to dogs and they show no fear. The horses willingly touch noses with the dogs and accept them, as the dogs accept the horses as their charge. The dogs are more upset when I take a horse off in the trailer than the other horses are. The male dog especially hates it. And he is thrilled when the horse returns. You can just see it in his attitude. He is so glad to see them back.

We have a lot of coyotes here in Oklahoma. (My husband has a friend that lost a large horse and two alpacas to coyotes.) We never have trouble with coyotes here on our property. We can hear the coyotes sing at night, but our two dogs run over to the fence and bark with their deep voices and no wild animals come near our place.

The negatives about great Pyrenees is that they like to dig.....[SIZE=12pt]BIG[/SIZE]....BIG holes. Holes that you could go spelunking in. <LOL> They seem to be nocturnal, preferring to be active at night and quiet during the day. That is not a negative unless you have neighbors that complain about barking.

Great Pyrenees are very territorial, but are prone to wander if they are not fenced. We have more trouble with our male wanting to go for a walk, than our female. She won't leave the property.

Personality wise, you won't find a better dog. They are very people friendly. You won't have to worry about a Great Pyrenees biting or attacking the neighbor’s child.

Barbara Kilkenny

 

[Katiean]

I was concerned about my horses so I got a Great Pyrenees (1/2) Bernese Mt Dog/Akbash (mother is the mix). She is just a puppy. She is almost 10 weeks old and weighs 22lbs. We are getting her socillized with the horses, chickens including young poullets, the rabbits in the cages and the one that runs the place, all of the cats (barn and house), the small dogs and people that belong there. Besides her being good with everyone She is showing signs of home protection at her young age. She is great. Now if she would just leave my mothers one and only one shoe alone

 

[Dona]

I can't say enough about our Pyrs!

They are both absolutely wonderful dogs....and seem to instinctively know exactly what their job is. As mentioned, they do seem to be very people friendly (which I like) and accept any of the animals we have on our property (whether it be horses, cats, whatever). They seem to know what "belongs" to them, and what doesn't. If they see a stray cat, or possom, or whatever...roam into our field, they are after them in a flash! And they MEAN BUSINESS! They DO need to have good fencing to keep them at home, however. I've never had a problem keeping mine at home, because I use woven field fence.....and my Pyrs have never dug holes, as someone else here mentioned. Mine also do not bark constantly. They do bark if they see (or hear) something....and a lot of times, they hear & see things that people do not.

As long as I have horses....I will always have a Great Pyrenees (or two) living with them.

 

[wendi leigh]

"The negatives about great Pyrenees is that they like to dig.....BIG....BIG holes. Holes that you could go spelunking in."

LOL.. I'm glad my dog isn't the only one doing this!! I have a Pyr/Anatolian mix that loves to dig holes and I never knew why. She does not bark excessively though. I also have a pure Anatolian. Both are great guard dogs, but my mixed breed is definately more alert and the first to bark when there is an intruder. The Anatolian on the other hand will not tolerate any critter "visitors" in his field. I find numerous racoons, possums, etc that he has killed.

Both also love to roam and will find a way out of a fence if possible. I have to use an electric hot wire around the top of a wooden rail fence in order to contain them.

I would try to find a 2-3 year old that has been trained as a LGD. There are many purebred and mixed breeds being given up these days because of the economy and the downsizing of large ranches. Both of my dogs were adopted from rescues. There are also several books about LGDs that you may find helpful in selecting a dog.

Good luck on your search.

 

[Katiean]

The only time mine digs is when there is water involved. Sheloves to play in the mud. This is real great when it comes to her running in and trying to jump in your lap. This she is just a bit too big for. Brandy comes out of the fence to bring in hay. She never leaves me. But then at this time of year she would rather be in the house laying in front of the AC.

LOL.

 

[Flaxenacres]

i had a great pyrenees and newfoundland mix. She was just like everyone said. She dug and in the summer she wanted to be out with the herd. and when the babys were rough she just sat there and took it. Someone said that theirs barked at nothing all night, after my experiance I would bet that it wasnt nothing. She would even bark at vulters circling in the air.

 

[Stef]

I can't say enough about our Pyrs!

They are both absolutely wonderful dogs....and seem to instinctively know exactly what their job is. As mentioned, they do seem to be very people friendly (which I like) and accept any of the animals we have on our property (whether it be horses, cats, whatever). They seem to know what "belongs" to them, and what doesn't. If they see a stray cat, or possom, or whatever...roam into our field, they are after them in a flash! And they MEAN BUSINESS! They DO need to have good fencing to keep them at home, however. I've never had a problem keeping mine at home, because I use woven field fence.....and my Pyrs have never dug holes, as someone else here mentioned. Mine also do not bark constantly. They do bark if they see (or hear) something....and a lot of times, they hear & see things that people do not.

As long as I have horses....I will always have a Great Pyrenees (or two) living with them.

Dona your Pyrs sound just like ours!

Ours only bark when the wildlife is getting to close to the yard other wise they are silent. We own seventeen acres and we use to have a lot of mountian lions and coyotes in our yard so we got three Pyrs and haven't had a problem since. With training them we just took ours and let them get to now all the different animals on our farm when they were pups and they have been great with everything from chickens to baby goats and bratty little foals

.

 

[mdegner]

You may already have decided to get a dog, but have you considered a donkey or llama? We've have both and they will go after predators. We've found dead coyotes and other squashed critters in the pasture and in general, if there is something in the pasture that doesn't belong there, they take off after it. They bond well with the minis and are low maintenance and easy to deal with.

I don't believe we have big cats where we live but I did see a video a few years ago of someone riding a mule in the mountains, being attacked by a mountain lion and the mule killed the lion with the rider still on its back.

Just a thought.

 

[MountainMeadows]

We live in a fairly remote area with cougars, bears, coyotes and some feral dogs. I ditto what Dona said about her Pyr's - mine are much the same - I just love them - and like Dona I have my place fenced well enough that I don't have trouble with them roaming. I have an Anatolian/Pyr cross (Bella) and she is a great dog, but definately has a roaming instinct and will take off thru the gate when we come and go and mark her territory up and down our entry road - (drives me nuts!) My Pyr only alarm barks, the Ana/Pyr cross hardly barks at all - neither of them are big diggers.

I love both my dogs, but am thinking about finding a better situation for Bella since she is so intent on her mission - she always comes back home, but I am afraid that one of these days she will get into trouble (

. . . sigh)

Good luck on your search Jennifer - I would not be without a Pyr.

Stacy

 

[uwharrie]

We had a Maremma when we had goats. Regretfully we got her from someone who had not done thier research into health issues in the breed ( and as a dog breeder I know better) Anyway she had autoimume problems. But that is no reflection on the breed.

I would get another one in a minute ( but from a reputable breeder). My requirments for a guardian dog was

A low coat maintainance dog that was guardy with out being overly protective as our neighbors practically live on our fenceline.

Pyrs had too much coat

anotolians were a bit too protective

After some research i decided on the Maremma shorter coat than a pry, less reactive than a anotolian.

at 9 weeks old I could not keep her out of the goat pen. It did take a year to train her and I learned the hard way not to let a pup stay unsupervised with babies ( she was just paying but it was not good)

If you are willing to spend the money there are folks out there that will sell you fully trained ( it takes 2 yrs before they can fully protect) adults that are trained to the stock of your choice. ( last time I looked the trained Maremma were about $2K)

 

[jsites]

Thanks for all the info. I will probably wait to get a dog when we move and have better fence. Right now we just have high tensil electric fence and I'm not sure how they will react to that. At our new farm I plan to fence the perimeter in woven horse fense. If I also use the horse fence for my dividers how do the dogs get from pasture to pasture to watch over all the horses. I plan to have four pastures. The front of the new farm is a hay field and it boarders a buisy highway. I did not plan to fence that. At the back of that hay field is a stream that we will have to bridge. On the other side of the stream is the first pasture which you will drive past to get to the house and barns. So my question is how will I contain a dog? I really hate to put up a gate that I will have to open every day. I definitly don't want to stop on a bridge to open the gate. I don't think my husband will go for that. He also will not be happy with the holes or barking at nothing.

The donkey is a thought but I have the same question for them...how does a donkey protect all the pastures? I have a friend who has miniature donkeys and she is always trying to get me to take one. Would a mini donkey protect also?

One more question for dog owners...Are Pyrs or Anas pushy? Do they jump against you or visitors? I know that different dogs in the same breed can have different personalitys and manners come with training. Just wondering how your dogs act.

 

[Celtic Hill Farm]

What about a donkey?

There Cute, and everyone around here has them for guarding there sheep and other animals, i would immagine they would do the same for minis...

 

[jsites]

After some research i decided on the Maremma shorter coat than a pry, less reactive than a anotolian.

at 9 weeks old I could not keep her out of the goat pen. It did take a year to train her and I learned the hard way not to let a pup stay unsupervised with babies ( she was just paying but it was not good)

If you are willing to spend the money there are folks out there that will sell you fully trained ( it takes 2 yrs before they can fully protect) adults that are trained to the stock of your choice. ( last time I looked the trained Maremma were about $2K)

Oh boy, that worries me. I know nothing about training dogs. I was hoping it came naturally, but knew better.

$2k

my husband would die if i spent that but it would totally be worth it if the dog saves just one horse

 

[mdegner]

Thanks for all the info. I will probably wait to get a dog when we move and have better fence. Right now we just have high tensil electric fence and I'm not sure how they will react to that. At our new farm I plan to fence the perimeter in woven horse fense. If I also use the horse fence for my dividers how do the dogs get from pasture to pasture to watch over all the horses. I plan to have four pastures. The front of the new farm is a hay field and it boarders a buisy highway. I did not plan to fence that. At the back of that hay field is a stream that we will have to bridge. On the other side of the stream is the first pasture which you will drive past to get to the house and barns. So my question is how will I contain a dog? I really hate to put up a gate that I will have to open every day. I definitly don't want to stop on a bridge to open the gate. I don't think my husband will go for that. He also will not be happy with the holes or barking at nothing.The donkey is a thought but I have the same question for them...how does a donkey protect all the pastures? I have a friend who has miniature donkeys and she is always trying to get me to take one. Would a mini donkey protect also?

One more question for dog owners...Are Pyrs or Anas pushy? Do they jump against you or visitors? I know that different dogs in the same breed can have different personalitys and manners come with training. Just wondering how your dogs act.

Jennifer, I don't know about the mini donkeys. I suspect they have similar temperments and instincts as a full grown donkey, I'm just not sure of their physical ability depending upon the predator. Sounds like you plan to have horses in all four pastures all the time? We also have 5 pastures but not all are occupied all the time. Unfortunately, old Jenny died last year so we just have the llama and alpaca right now but what we do is move them around depending upon how the situation. For instance, we also raise beefalo and so when the babies were born, we put the donkey and llama in with the cows until the babies are about 3 weeks old. Our mini mares and non-adult stallions tend to go in a pasture together and we tend to feel pretty safe with them in numbers--we can also see all of our pastures from the back of the house. When the mares foal, we tend to separate them from the rest of the herd--for bonding purposes--and we will put the llama and donkey in with them. So, we just move around based on the situation. You get always get a couple of them....ha ha....they are very inexpensive to acquire and feed and they live to between 20-30 years. Our donkey was the sweetest thing in the world, unless you were a predator. You could have put a human baby at her feet and she'd stand there and protect it. But if you didn't belong in the pasture, you either got out or she'd kill you.....

I've had pyrnees in the past and loved them. Great animals, unfortunately we had a lot problems with hip dysplasia and they didn't live terribly long. Around here, we've had situations where the coyotes band up and will literally call or lure a dog out to them and then kill it. Our neighbors lost a german shepherd recently that way.

I like having a dog around just because they typically will be a first alert if something going on, but in terms of real protection we will probably always have llamas and donkeys with the horses......just has worked well for us. Good luck to you. Best, Mary

 

[~Lisa~]

We found a Pyr a few years back he was the best dog ever I am sure though his owners tired of his wandering. He came to the house got along great with outside dogs and barn cats and the horses most of all the kids he was huge and about 18 months old according to the vet. His only issue was he was terrified of thunder or fireworks. He would run away during a thunder storm he always came back but started to make our neighbors pastures part of his domain. Didnt bother the people or the animals but I didnt have proper fencing to keep him safe. He really was such a wonderful dog we gave him to a foster home who found him a home as a pet with a 8 ft block wall fence so he was contained.

I would not hesitate to get another if I had proper fencing.

Even after only a couple days here (he stayed about a month) he quickly learned everyones schedule and who belonged where and only barked when he felt someone or something was not in the proper place

 

[Dona]

After some research i decided on the Maremma shorter coat than a pry, less reactive than a anotolian.

at 9 weeks old I could not keep her out of the goat pen. It did take a year to train her and I learned the hard way not to let a pup stay unsupervised with babies ( she was just paying but it was not good)

If you are willing to spend the money there are folks out there that will sell you fully trained ( it takes 2 yrs before they can fully protect) adults that are trained to the stock of your choice. ( last time I looked the trained Maremma were about $2K)

Oh boy, that worries me. I know nothing about training dogs. I was hoping it came naturally, but knew better.

$2k

my husband would die if i spent that but it would totally be worth it if the dog saves just one horse

As far as traing goes.....I'm sure that "training" may help some dogs to learn their jobs. But I have NEVER had to train any of my Pyrenees. They just instinctively knew their job. They will "patrol" the fenceline several times a day (and night) and when they aren't patrolling...they are plopped in the midst of the herd...keeping watch. They didn't have to be trained to accept the animals they live with. Nor did they have to be trained to be people friendly. My old Pyr "Panda" has always loved people, but that is probably because he was raised in the house with us for his first couple months. After that, he lived in the barn with the cats & horses. Most Pyrs have the "guardian" gene bred into them & they just instinctlively know what to do.

As far as how do they guard several pastures......well, if they are all separated by woven fence...they can't. You have to have a Pyr in every pasture in that case. The best thing to do would be to use good, woven wire fence around the entire perimeter of your farm, and use board fencing (or something Pyrs can go thru) for dividing the pastures.

And BTW....as far as cost goes. I got my first Pyr (Panda) for $65.00 at a Swap meet. He was the last puppy & was sold without papers (which I didn't care about anyway)

I just got another Pyr pup (Barney) for FREE! I saw an ad posted at a TSC store for FREE Pyr puppies. I was very suspicious...but went to check them out anyway. I found a whole kennel full of the most beautiful 4 mo. old Pyr puppies I've ever seen! They were definitely full-blooded. The owner had another litter in the house & was just overwhelmed with caring & feeding them all, and wanted to find good homes for the older ones.

So you CAN find really nice dogs for next to nothing if you look!

 

[Magic]

We have an Anatolian (spayed female) and an Anatolian/Pyrenees (neutered male). We started out with the Anatolian as a puppy, then got the adult Ana/Pyr as an adult a couple of years later. We live within half a mile of the mountains which are a wilderness area, and there are mountain lions and wolves, so we felt that two LGD dogs would be best. Both of our dogs are wonderful with people, they accept anyone that we say is ok, and they LOVE children, they are extremely gentle with them, and to answer your question, no they don't jump up on people at all. I've watched the dogs get bitten by the inquisitive weanling foals, one foal even lifted up the Anatolian's hind leg with his teeth, and she just stood patiently waiting for him to let go of her leg, then got out of his way. The dogs seem to realize that the foals are like puppies and do some odd things. The horses treat the dogs as part of the herd, and the dogs act the same way. Except for when they run to the fence barking at a perceived threat.

I LOVE our Livestock Guardian Dogs. Very loving, and highly intelligent. I never have to worry about the safety of our horses, because just the presence of the dogs deters predators. I also know that if something DOES try, the dogs will go after them.

There are rescues for Livestock Guardian dogs, and though some don't release their dogs for livestock protection (weird I know), others do. It would be worth checking out. Our first dog we got as a puppy, as I mentioned, and we got her several months before we moved to our larger place. Puppies don't start out guarding, they need to be introduced to the stock and be socialized and trained, so they can be kept in a smaller place. Our entire place wasn't fenced until six months or more after moving in, so our pup was kept in a smalller secure yard, next to the horses. It really isn't difficult to train an LGD either-- you just need to do your homework and learn what to do, how LGD's are different from other dogs, and that along with their natural instincts will give you a good dog in just a couple of years. Our second dog we got free from a friend who was moving to a smaller place and didn't need so many dogs anymore. He was raised among miniature horses and though it took him quite a while to settle in and feel like our place was "home", he has and is very happy, and an excellent guardian.

Have I mentioned how much I LOVE my Livestock Guardian Dogs?

 

[uwharrie]

And if you figure time, effort and money for 2 yrs it really is not that much more. If I do get another one it will be from the gal in NY,

(Plus is just is not worth the chance that a young untrained dog may accidently kill a foal playing with it. ( which is how mine killed a goat kid) totally my fault, just because she did not "play" with the adults did not mean she would not play with the kids, especially with a doe who was not really protective of her kids)

She does offer other "less finished" dogs for less money.

It also helps to have older trained dogs around to show the youngster the ropes. so once you get one trained adult on the property, future pups are easier to manage.

Oh and I did want a dog that was NOT friendly with anyone that walked up. I wanted a dog that would NOT let someone in with the goats if I was not there and they did not know the person. The dog was there to deter theft as much (or more) to protect from predators. I did want a dog that understood where the boundry of "her" property was. She never barked at anyone at the neighbors unless they came up to the fence.

I did not really train the maremma as much teach her.

Not to leave the fence (she would never leave the goats)

Not to "play" with the goats or babies (NEVER let a LGD play with stock)

not to chase them ( something many pups will do.

I did not have an adult LGD to teach these things so it took a lot more supervision and work. especially with an adolecent dog. Most Gardian experts will tell you not to expect a dog to fully be able to do a job till they are at least 2 yrs old.

Yes they will bark and scare things off, but what if whatever it is does not "scare".

Bottom line is do your research and talk to lots of people. And get dogs that are raised with the intended stock and adult dogs.

Oh boy, that worries me. I know nothing about training dogs. I was hoping it came naturally, but knew better.

$2k

my husband would die if i spent that but it would totally be worth it if the dog saves just one horse