LWO positive stallions

[Amy]

Well, I do not know the difference between a "regular" pinto & a Tobiano-- what is a Tobiano??

However, I do have 2 "Rowdy " girls-- one is solid & the other has a star & some small amounts of white on her-- I knew I should test them-- But I had thought I could breed my loud vevro mare to our new stallion as I thought he was pinto?? THis is confusing

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

"I believe there would be no more early losses than any other combination"

Hehe THAT I'm sure about.

Lethal whites have a higher incidence of early embryonic loss, but unless you are ultrasounding with an intensive schedule (we do day 11, 12, 13, 16, 30, 45, 60, etc... a LOT of checkups) you won't notice, and the mare will just come back into heat like nothing happened.

 

[Ojai Minis]

Well, I do not know the difference between a "regular" pinto & a Tobiano-- what is a Tobiano??

However, I do have 2 "Rowdy " girls-- one is solid & the other has a star & some small amounts of white on her-- I knew I should test them-- But I had thought I could breed my loud vevro mare to our new stallion as I thought he was pinto?? THis is confusing

A pinto is a color pattern. There is no "regular" pinto. Tobiano is a pinto pattern as is the other pinto patterns. Maybe you could google pinto patterns and see the different kinds. You will enjoy looking at all the pretty horses.

And as for taking that chance of getting a LWO baby, 1% is to high for me. I have seen a couple and it is heartbreaking when they have to be put down as they are totally normal when they are born. They have the same zest for life as any other foal only to have to die after so much pain. I saw it in the eyes. So sad. Not worth it AT ALL.

Liz V.

"I believe there would be no more early losses than any other combination"

Hehe THAT I'm sure about.

Lethal whites have a higher incidence of early embryonic loss, but unless you are ultrasounding with an intensive schedule (we do day 11, 12, 13, 16, 30, 45, 60, etc... a LOT of checkups) you won't notice, and the mare will just come back into heat like nothing happened.

Hi Nathan,

Where do you get these statistics? Just curious as I have never heard this before.

Liz V.

 

[Mona]

"I believe there would be no more early losses than any other combination"

Hehe THAT I'm sure about.

Lethal whites have a higher incidence of early embryonic loss, but unless you are ultrasounding with an intensive schedule (we do day 11, 12, 13, 16, 30, 45, 60, etc... a LOT of checkups) you won't notice, and the mare will just come back into heat like nothing happened.

I am not saying this doesn't happen...I am asking how you verify that the absorbed fetuses are indeed the result of the fetus being a LWO foal?? Just as many mares are bred and come back into season again, it can happen with LWO foals and it may not, but I have never read nor heard of any scientific research that has been done to back your statement up??? Not saying it is not so, just saying I have never heard such a thing about it until now.

 

[Songcatcher]

Well, I do not know the difference between a "regular" pinto & a Tobiano-- what is a Tobiano??

However, I do have 2 "Rowdy " girls-- one is solid & the other has a star & some small amounts of white on her-- I knew I should test them-- But I had thought I could breed my loud vevro mare to our new stallion as I thought he was pinto?? THis is confusing

If you will go to my website through the link in my signature below and click on the button that says "Color Genetics 101" you will find some simple information on colors and patterrns. From there you can also go to some links that give more detailed information on colors and information if you are interested.

 

[solupe]

Where is the cheapest place to have the test done?

Thanks

 

[RobinRTrueJoy]

I just tested my Boogerman son and he is LWO+ carrier. Honestly I wish he wasn't. I need to test my mares now and I am afraid my favorite mare may be + also. I love my stallion but I adore my mares. I will not take the chance and possibly get a Lethal white foal. The risks of foaling are so high and adding the possibility of having a Lethal white foal would be devastating to me.

If I find out that more than one of my mares are LWO carriers, I will sell my stallion! That would be a shame, he is tiny almost 28" blue eyed tovero, and a knock out!

 

[RJRMINIS]

Well I am going to test probably 4 mares this winter. My stallion I am getting will be 2 in the Spring, so he will only get a couple girlfriends for 2007.

That gives me another year to test the rest of the mares. I do not one to chance the Lethal white foal, it would be to heartbreaking for me and for my mare, so nothing will be bred to him unless they are tested first.

I am glad I checked on this, I never figured I would need to test my Cremello mare, as her back round is full of solid horses. She has no white on her at all she is solid also, but you all feel I need to check her as well?

I have no problem checking them $25 test is well worth it.

One other question I noticed while on the Animal Genetics site, the mare would have to test negative or nn to breed him with a positive(OO) What happens if they test (nO) (Horse tested heterozygous for LWO and can be considered an overo carrier.) Can they be bred safely to a positive?

Test resultsTaken from Animal Genetics)

OO Tested homozygous positive for the lethal white overo gene. LETHAL condition.

nO Both non-overo and overo alleles detected. Horse tested heterozygous for LWO and can be considered an overo carrier.

nn Tested negative for the frame overo gene. Horse can be considered a non-carrier.

Thanks for all your help, It's good to know everything I can BEFORE hand!!!!!!!!!

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[Becky]

Any horse that tests nO for LWO is a genetic frame overo and that is a positive horse. If it was OO it would be dead. :no:

I'm really excited about our new black Rowdy grandson who is LWO positive (nO). I have bred him to 4 mares none of which are LWO. I will be testing a few more mares to make sure they are not. I will not breed LWO to LWO knowingly.

 

[kaykay]

nathan

could you be confusing lethal roan?? lethal roan does cause early term absorptions. I have never heard that of lethal white. that is why its so heartbreaking. because they carry the foal full term only to have it die

 

[RJRMINIS]

Any horse that tests nO for LWO is a genetic frame overo and that is a positive horse. If it was OO it would be dead. :no:

I'm really excited about our new black Rowdy grandson who is LWO positive (nO). I have bred him to 4 mares none of which are LWO. I will be testing a few more mares to make sure they are not. I will not breed LWO to LWO knowingly.

Ok I got it! Thanks!

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[Nathan Luszcz]

nathan

could you be confusing lethal roan?? lethal roan does cause early term absorptions. I have never heard that of lethal white. that is why its so heartbreaking. because they carry the foal full term only to have it die

I can't say I've ever heard of lethal roan...

 

[Mona]

nathan

could you be confusing lethal roan?? lethal roan does cause early term absorptions. I have never heard that of lethal white. that is why its so heartbreaking. because they carry the foal full term only to have it die

I can't say I've ever heard of lethal roan...

It's sort of like LWO but in the case of lethal roan, it affects the pregnancy early term(as you have described for the LWO) and the mare absobs or aborts the fetus, so the foal is lost in pregnancy, and not born alive to die later.

I am not 100% positive, but I think the lethal roan is still not 100% proven. Some say yes, some say no.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

A lot of the evidence of early loss in LW's is the discrepancy between the theoretical loss (there is a 25% chance of passing the condition when you cross two recessive parents) and the reported loss (something around 10%). Some of that difference is made up of people who bury the evidence thinking it reflects badly upon their farm. The rest is thought to be early loss, so early that most non-intensive breeders wouldn't even know. That's the theory anyways.

 

[Ojai Minis]

A lot of the evidence of early loss in LW's is the discrepancy between the theoretical loss (there is a 25% chance of passing the condition when you cross two recessive parents) and the reported loss (something around 10%). Some of that difference is made up of people who bury the evidence thinking it reflects badly upon their farm. The rest is thought to be early loss, so early that most non-intensive breeders wouldn't even know. That's the theory anyways.

How do they know that the mares absorbed a Lethel White? Is it assumed that since 2 LWO+ are breed and the mares are checked in foal than lose the pregnancy? What kind of evidence is being buried? That they produced live foals that were LWO and had to be put down? Isn't it pretty common knowledge that you have that chance of getting that LWO + foal when bred to 2 LWO+ parents? Are these breeders just not saying that they get LWO babies that they have to put down? I figure if you are breeding pintos, and you own stallion and/or mare, it's your responsibility to make sure that you aren't breeding 2 positives. I do know that some, not even sure if it's lot's, in the Paint horse world, will take that chance. But maybe that thinking has changed? I have been out of the Paints for over 5 years now, so I am not aware of what is going on. I do know it seemed weird to me that when I started looking for Frame overo minis, the advertising seemed like people wanted you to know it carried LWO. I never used to see that in the Paints. I also think that if you are breeding pintos, that education is the key. If you are standing a stallion to outside mares that is LWO+ you need to tell the mare owners such and ask to have the mare tested if there is any possibility of being a carrier. They need to be aware of what might be born. Like I said it's heartbreaking and even more so when the mare owner has no idea.

Hopefully, I expressed my thoughts sort of clearly

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Liz V.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Those are more questions for the people doing the research, but I would assume that there is a higher incidence of lost embryo's with overo crosses, combined with the very low incidence of live lethal white foals being born, as opposed to the genetic cross 25% chance.

The evidence I'm refering to are the dead white babies, yes. Who said horse people were ethical? Whatever gave you that idea? (tongue in cheek) HYPP, HERDA, LW, etc... those should give the hint that people rather breed for money and prestiege than maybe what we SHOULD be breeding for. People tend to hide things that disgrace their stallions. HERDA horses were said to have "Cutter's disease" before it was named HERDA, because the affected horses were living happily until their second year, when they were saddled. Next day, skin fell off, horse just disapeared out of the barn and the trainer denies ever knowing about that animal. It was buried out back, because they didn't want anyone to know. And now we have another genetic disease to worry about. Whites are similar, and overo's are popular, so I have no doubt they were treated the same way. I'm not saying everyone does that, but underreporting isn't uncommon. Luckily people are becoming more educated and more ethical, and diseases like HYPP and testing for LW is becoming more common and more unaccepted, hopefully improving the breed and helping to eliminate those diseases.

 

[Ojai Minis]

Those are more questions for the people doing the research, but I would assume that there is a higher incidence of lost embryo's with overo crosses, combined with the very low incidence of live lethal white foals being born, as opposed to the genetic cross 25% chance.

The evidence I'm refering to are the dead white babies, yes. Who said horse people were ethical? Whatever gave you that idea? (tongue in cheek) HYPP, HERDA, LW, etc... those should give the hint that people rather breed for money and prestiege than maybe what we SHOULD be breeding for. People tend to hide things that disgrace their stallions. HERDA horses were said to have "Cutter's disease" before it was named HERDA, because the affected horses were living happily until their second year, when they were saddled. Next day, skin fell off, horse just disapeared out of the barn and the trainer denies ever knowing about that animal. It was buried out back, because they didn't want anyone to know. And now we have another genetic disease to worry about. Whites are similar, and overo's are popular, so I have no doubt they were treated the same way. I'm not saying everyone does that, but underreporting isn't uncommon. Luckily people are becoming more educated and more ethical, and diseases like HYPP and testing for LW is becoming more common and more unaccepted, hopefully improving the breed and helping to eliminate those diseases.

I think the key is education. If the odds are just the same to get a patterned baby, breeding 1 LWO+ to 1 LWO- then why take the chance? What's funny is I mentioned to a friend that I see her stallion (Paint) was LWO+, she acted like that was a bad thing. I said, it's only a bad thing if you don't test the mares she bred her stallion to. And she has been breeding Paints forever! How else did they think they are going to get those wild beautiful patterns.

I LOVE Overos and got myself somewhat educated when I saw my first LWO baby. So as responsible breeders of pintos, you need to be educated, not only in conformation and dispostion, but in not getting those lethal babies. I can't believe that people are hiding the fact that they are have LW babies. If you know that a horse is positive, you know there is the chance if you are breeding to anther positive. EDUCATION!!!!!

I remember seeing my first HYPP horse too. Can't believe people still take the chance. I never heard of HERDA. But I've been out of the big horses for a while

Liz

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

A horse with HERDA will abscess any skin that has had pressure on it. So if you saddle them, the entire saddle area will abscess and fall off. They rub on a tree, same thing. You smack them with your hand, and they will have a five-fingered abscess the next day. I've only seen one little mare who had it, most are put down. This little girl was happy as a clam, but you could easily tell when she rubbed against a tree. Sores everywhere, oozing pus... I'm surprised she didn't get sepsis (I actually don't know how to spell that word...) and die. She looked happy, loved attention... That disease was traced back to Poco Bueno. It goes back farther, but he's the one who's known for it since people inbred to him a LOT. Its also called Cutter's Disease because the lines that seem to have it are cutting lines, linebred back to Poco over and over.

 

[Mona]

As for underreporting them...those 25% statistics are stats based on the way matching of genes works...not how many are reported. So even if only 5% are reported, we can safely and quite accurately say that 25% of resulting foals from LWO to LWO results in a live foal at birth that soon thereafter dies to to an incomplete intestine making it impossible for him to pass feces.

 

[Dona]

As for underreporting them...those 25% statistics are stats based on the way matching of genes works...not how many are reported. So even if only 5% are reported, we can safely and quite accurately say that 25% of resulting foals from LWO to LWO results in a live foal at birth that soon thereafter dies to to an incomplete intestine making it impossible for him to pass feces.

I agree with you 100%, Mona!

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