Mare and Stallion that produced dwarf

[yankee_minis]

In the interest of learning... I am posting these pictures. It has been said that people can see dwarf characteristics in at least one of the parents, so maybe this will help people. I know what I think.

PLEASE don't take this post to a nasty place or I will ask the monitors to delete it. I am not interested in your negative opinions about me, my choices, or the breeders of these two horses.

The year before last this mare produced a dwarf filly and the whole world was watching on web cam. She's for sale and this will probably ruin any chance of her finding another home. Oh well. My daughter doesn't want me to sell her anyway! Mare has had other beautiful foals.

She's 34" tall and a fatso most of the time. Good bite, no dome (honest), good legs.

She was bred to this 29" guy who is now a gelding. (The dwarf was the only foal he ever had.) Good bite, good legs.

I'll see if I can find a picture of the mare's head. She truly is flat across the forehead but she does have a dip just below the eyes.

 

[maestoso]

I hope that the gelding wasn't gelded ONLY because he produced the dwarf. Producing one doesn't conclude producing several more, or even any more at all. You could breed the same pair again and it could be a beautiful baby.

I am happy for your daughter that she gets to keep the pet she loves! But honestly, anyone who would not buy her just because she produced a dwarf once would be foolish. They might be missing out on an awesome horse!

 

[Crabby-Chicken]

Thank you for sharing your horses for us to learn from. I am sorry that she had a dwarf. This is information that should be helpful to a lot of us.

 

[RainSong]

I'd take either of those two in a heart beat

My admittedly unexpert eye doesn't see dwarf- I do see some faults, but neither looks like a dwarf... to me.

 

[lvponies]

Honestly, I'm not seeing anything in this pair that screams dwarf to me either. BUT....still trying to learn as much as I can, so will wait for other more knowledgeble folks to give their opinions.

 

[runamuk]

Just out of curiosity what were their ages at the time of breeding?

I know other people who have gelded after stallions produced one dwarf.

What I find interesting in these two is how similar they actually are in both faults and virtues. Neither has huge extreme

faults.

The stallions head "appears" a bit disproportionate, his neck has that underside bulge, his feet appear boxy, and his rump is a bit steep with a low set tail.

The mare has similar faults but to an even lesser degree. She looks quite a bit like my mare that had my 24 inch wonder. Not perfect, not a top halter contender but a reasonably decent horse.

Even if I double their faults up in my minds eye I still do not visualize a dwarf.

Honestly I'd give the mare a second chance with a different stallion who was very correct.

If you could PM me I have some questions best asked privately. Kinda want to compare notes.

I missed the foaling but am guessing it wasn't a good outcome??

 

[yankee_minis]

Actually the foal is fine and with a nice lady named Penny.

Mare was 5 and stallion was 3 or 4. Can't remember exactly.

 

[miniwhinny]

Honestly, I'm not seeing anything in this pair that screams dwarf to me either.

I think that's the point here...you don't need to breed dwarfs to get dwarfs...all it means is that those two perfectly normal mini's each carry a recessive dwarf gene. The combination of the two recessives produced the dwarf. The odds are 1 in 4 if both are carriers but in reality they may never produce a dwarf again or may produce many.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Thank you VERY much for posting the pictures. That was very generous of you to put yourself "out there" so others can learn.

I do not see dwarf in either horse. I see some conformation things that aren't my preference, but no dwarf. I would have been surprised at the outcome also.

I know that many people geld a stallion after he has one dwarf and I know that many do not. I personally think you made the right decision when you gelded him. Even if he never produced another dwarf, he will have a much better chance at a long, happy life as a gelding IMO. There are so many stallions to chose from; it just makes good sense.

 

[HGFarm]

I dont see anything that screams dwarf either and would certainly also give the mare another chance.

The stallion, though not something I would say is a dwarf, has many conformation faults that I would not consider stallion quality, so I do feel you were right in gelding him for that reason, not just for the dwarf.

Thank you very much for sharing these- this is all very informative and helps with education.

 

[nootka]

Curious about the mare's head. I would not have pegged her for a dwarf producer, but the stallion, maybe.

Based on a few things, and I know very few agree with me.

He is, overall, VERY poor quality to be using for breeding, so it's fine that he was gelded, in my very humble opinion. I honestly think you might be safe with another stallion, but again, the mare has undesirable traits as well (as does every one).

I am wondering if she has the same boxy type head that my filly's dam did. Is her bite good?

Truthfully, I see a bit of a curved upward shape to her head based on the second photo, but that's the ONLY thing I really see that I would attribute to dwarfism and as has been worried about on other threads, "weird" conformation such as head shape, which is of little consequence for the most part, may just be only that, weird conformation.

However, that one trait is one that I note on her. I would love to see the photo of her head and THANK YOU for being honest. Thank you so much. The stallion, honestly, I am NOT surprised about the dwarf, given his height, his combined defects, again he has a "look" to him of being scrunched into a smaller package. Look at the size of his head for his back and leg length. His legs look over at the knee, though (front ones obviously). Still, I don't know that I would have said "dwarf" though I am not surprised 100% that he sired one. Just another learning experience for me.

Thank you again...I truly appreciate it and if you don't mind, would like to keep these for my files.

Do you have a photo of the foal?

Liz

 

[ohmt]

I agree with everything nootka said!! That was my reaction....the stallion I could see having a dwarf trait...don't like his hind end and hind legs and his head as well. I think that's where I get it from. I probably would not have used him for a stallion. But the mare....would not have guessed it!

I will admit that my very best broodmare produced a minimal dwarf filly. The filly was the pick of the foal crop and the next year got her dwarf characteristics. My broodmare has not had a foal since though I cannot say I have not bred her again. Definitely not with the same stallion. Wish I had pics for everyone. I still own the dwarf filly (now mare) as she is gorgeous and I'm just too afraid someone is going to breed her. she's a wonderful brush horse for the kids!!

 

[nootka]

Mona, thank YOU!

I do see it in Lindsey, though fairly mildly, she looks much like the dam to my palomino filly though my filly's dam was a cremello.

I dont' see it in the stallion, other than he has a largish head.

I still maintain that I have seen pairs where ONE horse was the only one I could see dwarf characteristics in, yet the pair had a dwarf that was worse than the one that I could see it in.

I will also say that there have been a FEW stumpers over the years, but relatively few compared to how many were somewhat obvious.

I MAY BE WRONG, THOUGH.

I am still learning. As are we all, I hope.

Liz

 

[Mona]

Hope you don't mind that I add mine too??

[SIZE=12pt]Sire: "Stormy" 31.5" - Was shown AMHR as a 3 year old with multiple Championships and Grands in his Senior Stallion height division. Also won Reserve and Champion Stallion in his height group for Minnesota and Area clubs. Was overall 3rd in All Start points that year. Was shown from May thru September. Placed 7th at AMHR Nationals in his Senir Stallion Halter class. He had what I consider a very plain head, WONDERFULLY straight legs, was a little heavier boned, longer backed and shorter necked than I preferred. GREAT temperament. Only produced one dwarf, with a mare that produced at least 2 that I know of. Sold him, but not because of the dwarf.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Shown here as a yearling (to show his head at that age)[/SIZE]

Here as a 3 year old while in show condition:

[SIZE=12pt]And here in "pasture condition" at age 5.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]And here are all his foals he sired.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Here is the dam, "Lyndsey". 33.5"-34" mare. Rocky (by Stormy) was her first dwarf foal. She too was long in body for her height, had a large, rather plain head, and she also had a funky front end. I always referred to is as "bull-doggy" as it seemed wide across the chest and elbows seemed set on wierd. She had some "normal" foals, but when she produced her second dwarf foal "Star", I sold her a pet(non-breeding) home and she went without papers. She and "Star" went together. Looking back at her conformation-wise, I feel Lyndsey really was "pet" quality, rather than breeding quality.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]This is Rocky, their dwarf foal. He was put to sleep. You can read his full story by clicking on his underlined name. (link)[/SIZE]

This was Lyndsey's second dwarf foal, and the reason I decided to place her in a non-breeding home. This foal was sired by a different stallion, whome I will not name, nor post photos of, since he has been sold.

Also, I want to state, when selling these stallions, it was was never hidden that they had produced a dwarf foal. They were told.

 

[Stephanie]

I have also placed pictures of a mare and stallion that produced a dwarf foal. I thought they were both very nice animals. They were never bred to each other again and neither has produced another dwarf as far as I know.

 

[runamuk]

Mona and Stephanie what lept out at me is Lyndsey and the appy stallion both have that to long of body for leg distortion. On another thread someone posted a picture of another one that was a bit more extreme but believed to be a dwarf.

I am finding this thread to be really interesting. Like liz I have seen a few dwarves where one look at the parents and it was a no brainer it had happened (dwarves were being used). I also have seen a few that were far less obvious where it came from but was known to have happened in the bloodline.

 

[MooreAcres]

At one point I had a mare who had produces two dwarf foals. She'd has four foals by the time I got her. First was a stillborn (dwarf), second a gorgeous palomino colt who is now being used as a stallion, third was a cute lil black/bay filly (normal), and last was a palomino colt who is a dwarf. I had planned on using her crossed on my stallion, who was a bit taller and had more shetland type breeding in his pedigree. FYI, all four of the mares foals were sired by different stallions, all under 34". I thought that maybe breeding her to my stallion would lessen the chance of producing a dwarf. Although I never got the chance to breed her before I sold her.

I would give the mare another chance. I do agree though, that the stallion should have been gelded.

 

[RainSong]

I think I'm beginning to see the common line of "above the knee" shortness some people have posted...

Thank you all for posting these, I am really looking to try and see what everyone is pointing out. It's nice to have them, posted and not have it turning into a mess... a lovely learning experience so far! THANK YOU

I forgot to add- when I first saw the stallion, I did think he was a better gelding then stud- he's gorgeous, but he has this odd stocky build, and imho his neck is a little thick and tied in high. Thick leg bone in those rear legs...

THAT's what it is. He's "ponyish"!

 

[nootka]

Stephanie's pair is also no surprise.

Curious, did the stallion come from Southern Oregon? (you can respond privately)

The mare, though, shows less than the stallion, but I'm not really surprised that she would have had a dwarf when mated with that stallion.

Liz

 

[Jill]

With the initial posting, the mare's bite on the left to me looks off. That must just be my eyes or the way she's holding her mouth in that shot (as I know her bite is on). That would be the only thing glaring at me about her, which you have already addressed and cleared up.

With the sire, I don't see anything there that says dwarf, but as was pointed out, he is really very much "pet quality" to my eyes. It's good that he was gelded, but because of how he himself is, not because he produced the dwarf.

For the other people who posted pictures, I don't see anything "dwarfy" about any of them. None of them are my taste in horses, and none of them are perfect (as no horses are), but to my eyes, I dont' see a thing that would say dwarf to me. I see things that would not make me personally choose them for my breeding stock, but that is not due to "dwarfiness" but due to me liking a different style.