Mare and Stallion that produced dwarf

[anita]

Please make me smart.

How can you make it happen to see in the gentics of a horse and with a blank eye?

A

 

[MSRminis]

This is a question, so please dont flame me, I truly want to know the answer and ask with the upmost respect for all of you that have posted. I notice that a lot of times people tend to kinda place blame on the stallion, and automatically geld him. Of course that is not bad, it is never bad to geld, but is the decision based on the fact a male contributes more to the gene pool than a female, or that you CANT alter the mare? I know one poster commented that a mare had two seperate dwarfs from two seperate stallions..wouldn't that put a higher % that the mare is the carrier? I find the genetics of it very interesting. We had a litter of Great Pyrenees pups last year, our first litter, than later learned there were two dwarfs. We were shocked as we never knew they existed. As in horses it is very hush, hush and many are just destroyed. We have at our expense sent blood and x rays and vital information to a research project at UC DAvis who is probably less than one year away from developing a test for the carrier gene. This would of course allow breeders to choose who they breed to and not have to remove any breeding stock-I guess similar to LWO. I know in the dogs there are no "charachteristics". The carriers show NO dwarf traits. Its all very interesting, huh?

 

[targetsmom]

First of all, I want to thank everyone who posted photos and information on here as I think this is a wonderful learning experience. But I do have some questions for ohmt about her minimal dwarf. Again, I just want to learn as much as I can about this, as I think we all do.

Ohmt said " I will admit that my very best broodmare produced a minimal dwarf filly. The filly was the pick of the foal crop and the next year got her dwarf characteristics. ...... I still own the dwarf filly (now mare) as she is gorgeous ..."

If you can't show photos of the filly could you describe her minimal dwarf characteristics? I guess I am wondering how she could go from the "pick of the foal crop" and then become a minimal dwarf the next year and end up "gorgeous"? What kinds of things should one watch for???

 

[yankee_minis]

Honest, the mare I posted at the beginning does not have a bad bite. I wouldn't breed with a bad bite. And no bulge in the head, just a dip. She is honestly flat across the forehead.

I bought her bred to a gorgeous stallion and she had a beautiful, small, dainty filly. If you go to my website, look at Photos, Mares, and then find the link to mare's page. There is a link to Ditto just below the photos and above the pedigree. I don't own the filly anymore so I can't post her picture here. (All I have are very young pictures because I sold her as a youngster, so yes, the baby bulge is there. Look at more pics and you'll see that it disappears.)

Skipped a year.

Bred her to this boy and she had a full-blown dwarf. Delivery almost killed both of them but vet was there in 10 minutes of me seeing the upside down foot.

He was gelded because of the dwarf and because of his other faults. I am actively learning about good conformation. Just ask some of the people around here that I have been bugging for years-- what's good about this one? what's a bad shoulder angle? what's a weak hip? what do you think of this one? that one? LOL I have learned a lot and I want to keep learning!

The mare's filly this year is a pretty black pinto that was born with a perfect bite. She puts beautiful heads on her babies.

Mare is open for 2008.

I would breed her again to an outstanding stallion that would improve on her less attractive points-- one that is more refined and delicate. You know what I mean?

My 19 year old daughter loves her because the two are just alike. She makes a fantastic mom and a great pasture mate, but she doesn't really fit in my breeding program anymore and that's the only reason I'm considering selling her.

THANK YOU SO MUCH for keeping this civil and for adding pictures other breeding pairs that resulted in a dwarf. I was initially upset that the other recent threads would get more attention and I was afraid that was because some people just like too much drama. I have renewed faith in this forum that we can discuss this in respectful manner and LEARN stuff!!

Tracy

 

[Firefall]

I just wanted to thank all of you that posted pictures. Its really helping me, like some of you I don't see real obvious signs either. Yikes...........I have much to learn!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MBhorses]

Thanks to everyone for sharing the photos and information. I really love to learn from this forum.

thanks everyone,

 

[Mona]

I know one poster commented that a mare had two seperate dwarfs from two seperate stallions..wouldn't that put a higher % that the mare is the carrier?

Yes, I thought so too...not saying in my case the stallion was not responsible some too, but the mare seemed to be carrying the gene "stronger" if there is such a term in reference to genetics, but since she had fewer foals and had produced 2 during the time I owned her, I figured for sure she was carrying quite a strong gene for it, and that is why I opted to sell her to a pet home without papers. I didn't, nor do I now consider her to look dwarfy. Conformation flaws, definately yes, but I do not look at her and see dwarf. Her 2 dwarf foals were the only dwarfs I have ever had born here.

 

[runamuk]

This is a question, so please dont flame me, I truly want to know the answer and ask with the upmost respect for all of you that have posted. I notice that a lot of times people tend to kinda place blame on the stallion, and automatically geld him. Of course that is not bad, it is never bad to geld, but is the decision based on the fact a male contributes more to the gene pool than a female, or that you CANT alter the mare? I know one poster commented that a mare had two seperate dwarfs from two seperate stallions..wouldn't that put a higher % that the mare is the carrier? I find the genetics of it very interesting. We had a litter of Great Pyrenees pups last year, our first litter, than later learned there were two dwarfs. We were shocked as we never knew they existed. As in horses it is very hush, hush and many are just destroyed. We have at our expense sent blood and x rays and vital information to a research project at UC DAvis who is probably less than one year away from developing a test for the carrier gene. This would of course allow breeders to choose who they breed to and not have to remove any breeding stock-I guess similar to LWO. I know in the dogs there are no "charachteristics". The carriers show NO dwarf traits. Its all very interesting, huh?

Some dog breeds are hush hush and others are much more open

I know people I have talked with geld the stallion often for that reason he can produce far more foals than a mare. Some will continue to use them but are very careful on which mares they will breed.

Please make me smart.
How can you make it happen to see in the gentics of a horse and with a blank eye?

A

This is my perspective/opinion and how I approach breeding anything.

Genetics have two components genotype (which you cannot see) and phenotype (what you can see). If I wanted to create the ultimate weiner horse

here is how I would do it (super simplified version). I would look for horses who have good features I want to retain so pleasing head, nice length of neck, straight legs, nice tailset and the important long back with shorter legs. I would try to find horses who excel in these points and breed them. The hope is that the doubling of the body length and short legs will happen and retain the other traits, creating a shorter longer horse. One then continues this progression selecting for specific traits and avoiding others. As time goes on with keeping pedigrees and knowing bloodlines you begin to have an "idea" of what is there in the genotype even if it isn't expressed in phenotype. So I may get a longer legged foal than desired, but I know that horse has the potential to produce the desirable short legs and to test this I choose the best short legged mate.

I realize no one probably wants the ultimate weaner horse

but that is an example of how some of the seen/unseen genetics work. Many breeds of dogs characteristics come from dwarfism traits. Daschunds, basset hounds, bulldogs, pugs, etc.... with these obvious dwarf breeds each have traits that lie hidden that can be devastating cleft palates, scoliosis, elongated palates, etc.....you want to keep the features that make the breed type and avoid the features that affect health.

Some will never agree with me and that is OK but in miniatures the main feature we want from dwarfism is short stature (smaller) and we don't want the other features.

 

[nootka]

Please make me smart.
How can you make it happen to see in the gentics of a horse and with a blank eye?

I am not sure what this is asking, but there is no way to see into the genetics without scientific testing.

THAT is why we are all debating photos of horses, or looking at them in person. We are using educated guessing based on long-term observation as well as knowledge of horse proportions and conformation.

Often you will see a theme, a common thread between the different types of dwarfs, from moderate to severe, and you will begin to see some of the features in horses that look fairly normal. Too many of these to me makes me think the horse may have something lurking in there genetically.

Sometimes this has been proven, other times, not. I would say most of the time, someone would be alright breeding one with minimal characteristics, but why risk it?

Lots of times I see breeders using out and out dwarfs, and some of their babies look ok, but then again, once in a while you get the really bad ones that dont' even make it to be born.

Only with honesty and some luck in isolating a test will we ever have definitive answers. For now, all we can do is give our best guess to protect our little ones.

Liz M.

 

[RainSong]

Of course that is not bad, it is never bad to geld, but is the decision based on the fact a male contributes more to the gene pool than a female, or that you CANT alter the mare?

I think part of why the mares go on "unfixed" is the simple fact that it costs a lot more money and is a lot riskier to spay a mare- I've read about vets who aren't even willing to do it.

Gelding, for the most part, is not horribly invasive- unless you've got a cryptorchid or a retained testicle. Spaying is always VERY invasive, as you have to go into the body, no matter what.

It should be a 50/50 gene contribution. You can't say simply because one mare threw several dwarves with different stallions that she'd contributing more genes then the stallions are- it is luck of the draw, like throwing dice. Some genes are dominant, and if there is more then one gene for dwarfism, she may be carrying a non-double recessive version... but it is a still a 50% chance of being passed on.

That is not condoning further breeding, just clarification.

Now, if spaying a mare were as common as spaying a queen (female cat) or their lupine counterpart... then I think we might see more people willing to spay those "pet quality" and dwarf producing mares. That is part of the issue with all breeds of horses, though- if breeders could easily spay a mare before selling her as less then breeding quality, we may (note, I say MAY) have fewer people breeding lower quality animals.

Of course, you'd have to get them to spay in the first place... just like gelding. *sigh* Never ending battle

 

[EMB]

Well I have learned a few things on this forum before but this thread is the ultimate learning experience for me personally. To all those who have posted their horses and/or comments about their experiences with respect to having bred a dwarf, know this. I have the utmost respect for you all and your breeding programs.

I am really interested in learning more on this leg length issue. If I read things correctly, the issue is the length of the leg above the knee that folks are focusing on. So my question is this then. If one were to look critically at their own horses in that one area what would be an ideal length in relation to the portion of the leg below the knee? Would it be equal, with the knee at the halfway point of the leg?

Thanks again for the opportunity this discussion presents. Perhaps when the thread has basically run it's course, admin would see fit to move it to The Best forum.

Eileen

 

[yankee_minis]

The canon bone should be shorter than the others. Slightly contrary to what you might think... but it is the shortest.

 

[EMB]

The canon bone should be shorter than the others. Slightly contrary to what you might think... but it is the shortest.

Thank you! You're right it's not what I would expect. I was thinking along the lines of equal being the most desirable. One more thing to check before purchasing.

 

[targetsmom]

I too would like to see this thread added to the Best of the Forum...

Regarding leg bone length, my recollection is that (at least in big horses) the "ideal" ratio varies somewhat and that western riders like the knees and hocks "closer to the ground" than English riders prefer. But that yes, both want the canon bone to be shorter. I suspect it has something to do with performance and the differences between reining and jumping. Of course I have been inspecting my own horse's legs, and note quite a variation in the ratio of bone lengths, but generally short canon bones.

 

[Margo_C-T]

The 'too short' upper limbs is USUALLY a notable feature in achodroplastic dwarves-that is, the ones that often don't 'look like' dwarves at birth/as young foals. The visual evidence that the horse is this type of dwarf will almost always become more evident as the horse ages. Overall, most light horse breeds want the lower leg to be 'shorter' than the upper leg('upper leg' meaning forearms, hind legs from stifles to hocks); in horses where SPRINTING speed is very desirable(QHs and other stock horse breeds that basically stem from the QH), this is even more the case-but to a degree, it it always desirable in light horse breeds.

I have seen (adult)achrondoplastic dwarves where EVERY part of the horse looked pretty 'normal', EXCEPT that the horse was 'built uphill', with the hind legs both extremely cowhocked AND "overbent", so that the horse almost appeared to be 'resting' its buttocks on its hocks; in others, the front legs are also crooked in some noticable way--and some seem to manifest more in that the legs just NEVER seem to grow, and you see the EXTREMELY SHORT legs(still with the too-short upper limbs)-and often, the 'sausage' body. The first miniature horse 'breeder'(nice man, knew absolutely NOTHING about horses, was looking for a 'hobby' for his stepdaughters/daughter, had plenty of financial resources available....) I ever found close enough to visit had gone around and bought from just about every 'old name' breeder then in existence-Bond, Dell Tera, Sooner States, Hobby Horse were the major ones represented in the names of horses at his farm. He had SEVERAL stallions with one of these farm names-one was an achrodoplastic dwarf, I later understood(at the time, I didn't know about that kind of dwarfism, but my gut instincts kept me from buying ANYTHING by that horse-even though the owner said the farm owner had told him that the horse had 'been injured' as a foal!!) Several years later, the owner bought a whole group of B sized mares, that had an achrodoplastic dwarf mare among them--as I said, the owner KNEW NOT.

There is almost never any mistaking a brachycephalic dwarf(the bulging forehead, highly-placed nostrils, severe underbite, no-neck, extremely crooked legs, severe 'potbelly', and sometimes, roach back and other manifestations,that are there from the start, make them usually much easier to identify at birth. However, it can be more difficult to identify an achrodoplasic dwarf, especially if it is minimal in expression.

I would say that there really is no 'ideal' proportionate length of upper to lower leg; instead, lots of study and looking at LOTS of horses, with the help of expert input, is what it takes to develop the 'eye' for what is correct and what is not.

Margo

 

[Cedar Ridge Farm]

I sure appreciate the photos and theall the responses. I can see I still have a lot to learn OH! Hope this gets moved so we can go back and study some more.

Peggy

 

[disneyhorse]

Shorter cannon bones produce more "motion" in a horse... but overall you want LONG LEGS regardless of the proportions!

THank you for posting those pictures, it is interesting.

Andrea

 

[MyBarakah]

I have had someone with who's a major mini expert tell me that you can breed 2 minis and get a dwarf and breed them again......and the chances of them ever producing a dwarf again would be like 1 in 5. Even if minis have dwarfs way back in thier bloodlines..... it doesn't matter.....it all matters if those genes happen to connect with one another to make that dwarf gene.... it doesn't matter how far back in thier genes they have the dwarf genes.... And there's TONS of minis that have a dwarf way back in thier pedigree..... so if they produce a dwarf.....doesn't mean that you are to never breed them again.....

 

[Minimor]

I have had someone with who's a major mini expert tell me that you can breed 2 minis and get a dwarf and breed them again......and the chances of them ever producing a dwarf again would be like 1 in 5. Even if minis have dwarfs way back in thier bloodlines..... it doesn't matter.....it all matters if those genes happen to connect with one another to make that dwarf gene.... it doesn't matter how far back in thier genes they have the dwarf genes.... And there's TONS of minis that have a dwarf way back in thier pedigree..... so if they produce a dwarf.....doesn't mean that you are to never breed them again.....

I would point out the obvious, that this is just one person's opinion--both in terms of how dwarfism "works" and as to whether or not a known dwarf producer should or should not be bred again.

 

[horsehug]

Here is a link to a thread posted a few years ago by Robin of Little King Farm about their perspective on dwarfism. I think it was an excellent post and made by the family who has done more to research dwarfism than any other to date. So many new people to the forum probably have not ever read it so I thought I'd post a link to it.

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.ph...=dwarf+research

Susan O.