Mean Spiritedness

[LaVern]

I think that I have woke up on the wrong side of the bed the last few days and have posted a few things that were not very nice. Negativity never gets you anywhere. My only excuse and it does not justify my being mean, is that I feel pushed and when I am pushed I sometimes push back, and take it out on whoever is handy (like that poor lady at the Tractor Supply).

I think the thing that set me off is this proposal to be able to hardship unknown geldings into AMHR.

I guess I feel, what on earth have I been doing all these years by trying to breed better and better and saving only a few colts as potential stallions. And then gelding and registering and carrying for and training and trying to find good homes for these little guys with pedigree up the wazooo.

What for? I might as well pull them off the mares and dump them at the sales barn with no papers. It cost much more to give the public a good little gelding with pedigree. No one wants them until they are two years old and it costs lots to put that much time and care into them. It is much more finically savvy to dump a weanling stallion on someone and say it is a breeding stallion.

If this passes it is just another blow to the honest good AMHR breeder.

 

[kaykay]

Lavern it may surprise you to know that I totally agree with you on the gelding proposal

See it does happen!

I had to think long and hard about it the past few years. I try really hard to promote geldings and I think this would be a huge backward step not only for breeders but for the registry.

Most of us agree that we want AMHR to become a breed instead of height registry but if you allow "unknown" geldings in that goal will never become a reality.

I do feel bad for the unregistered geldings out there but we cant reward people that dont register by letting them sell them for nothing and then the buyer register in later especially at such a reduced fee.

Kay

 

[JMS Miniatures]

You have certaintly given me something to think about.

 

[CharlesFamily]

I also had not thought of it from that point of view - probably because I am not a breeder, just an owner of all geldings that ARE registered and bred out the wazoo!

I guess what I was thinking about is looking on craigslist and other sites and seeing these grade stallions - selling dirt cheap and wishing I could "rescue" them. Some of them have great potential as a nice gelding. BUT I have a very small place. I have to be very selective of what I have here and I want to be able to take ALL of my horses with me to AMHR shows. I just don't have room to have "just" a 4-H horse - they all have to be able to do double duty.

Eventually, my goal and what I am working towards this year, is to start a miniature only 4-H club in our county. I want to get kids interested and find them some nice geldings to show - whether they lease from me or buy. I also want to introduce these kids to the world of AMHR - and be able to take them all to our area shows.

I could see myself potentially being able to promote the miniature gelding as a fantastic family horse and a great choice for kids to begin showing with. In my mind this is a win/win proposition for so many - we promote geldings as a great choice for a mini horse; we increase revenue for AMHR through shows, registration and memberships; and we "save" many grade stallions by making them registered geldings and taking them out of the grade breeding market.

That's not to say that I am only looking to elevate grade animals to registered. I love looking at all the great farms around me and would love to own many of their horses. I would just like to have the hardship registry as an option.

I don't see the impact of allowing a non-breeding animal in on the registry as a "breed." They won't be passing anything along. I don't agree with opening it to mares and stallions - only geldings. First, it might encourage those with grade horses breeding willy nilly to cut their colts and register them to give them some value. At least that would start to plug this hole of low grade minis we have.

I also think there shouldn't be a "price break" for hardshipping your gelding. It should cost the same to harship a gelding as it does to register "papered" stock. Otherwise you will get those who will choose to geld and "hide" their horse's ancestry in order to hardship them at a decreased rate. That erasing of pedigree would be a tremendous loss to the AMHR as a breed.

As always, there are two viewpoints to everything. I can see this issue from both sides - and the impact on both sides. This is just my position!

Barbara

 

[Songcatcher]

I'm glad someone else finally had the nerve to say it. Hardshipping geldings does not add anything to the breed, and hurts breeders, both in AMHA and AMHR.

I'm with you on this one.

 

[LaVern]

I too feel for some of the little unregistered guys. Although I have sold a lot of little guys that the papers were never even transferred to the new owners names. Some of which I get pictures of every Christmas. Some are going on the second generation of kids in the same family.

But my point is that if our registry doesn't stand behind the AMHR breeders and say, "look being a registered AMHR gelding means something", then what good is it to us? We have to remember that breeders are the backbone of the registry. They are the only way the registry makes money.

The shows and the fancy trainers and the advertising and all the other stuff doesn't bring the money in, in fact it cost the registry money. The money and a what the registry can do for its members comes from our breeders registering our horses.

Sure a few hard-shipped geldings can bring in a little bit, but if it is at the cost of alienating the honest breeder, I don't think it is worth it.

 

[Lewella]

I too feel for some of the little unregistered guys. Although I have sold a lot of little guys that the papers were never even transferred to the new owners names. Some of which I get pictures of every Christmas. Some are going on the second generation of kids in the same family.

But my point is that if our registry doesn't stand behind the AMHR breeders and say, "look being a registered AMHR gelding means something", then what good is it to us? We have to remember that breeders are the backbone of the registry. They are the only way the registry makes money.

The shows and the fancy trainers and the advertising and all the other stuff doesn't bring the money in, in fact it cost the registry money. The money and a what the registry can do for its members comes from our breeders registering our horses.

Sure a few hard-shipped geldings can bring in a little bit, but if it is at the cost of alienating the honest breeder, I don't think it is worth it.

 

[Sanny]

Just curious....what if they were allowed to hardship them but they had to pay significantly more than it costs to register the regular way so if someone finds what they feel is show quality it is an option? If it costs significantly more than regular registration nobody is going to do it unless as a last resort.

I haven't made it through all of the proposals yet and hadn't seen this one so have not put any thought to it.

There are minis out there though that I've found that I've really liked that did not have papers that I didn't buy because I wanted to be able to show them and I would have been willing to pay a higher fee for the opportunity to hardship them.

I don't breed and we have two dozen horses and only 3 are mares - the rest are geldings. Some of them have terrific pedigrees and some have been terrific breeding stallions in their other life and some of them have unknown pedigrees. They all are special to me and what is on their papers makes no difference to me. That is the perspective of a non-breeder though and someone that buys the horse and not the papers.

All my registration papers mean to me is that my horses are allowed to show at an AMHR sanctioned show.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

The proposal is to allow hardshipping in unregistered geldings for just $50. That is way too low IMO. So unless the person is there that made this proposal to change the cost of fee this won't get passed. I think if you want this to happen let the fee cost as much as a stallion to be hardshipped $400, thats double the regular fee to hardship in a gelding. Also you have to get the horse inspected which is what the proposal wants.

 

[Kitty]

I'm with you on this one!!! I had no idea AMHR was considering doing this. It really upsets me ALOT!!! I work really hard at breeding the best horses I can, traveling thousands of miles and breeding to outstanding stallions and often I get colts. You can only keep so many colts and then you have to make a hard decision. Geld or not Geld. I am very realistic here and if they are not stallion material I geld.

AND IT IS NOT CHEAP to geld and maintain them. I have about 15 colts and geldings here on free board. The market is poor and no one wants them until they are 2 or 3 yrs old and by then you have more into them then you will ever get. I don't complain. I show a good number of them and we do well. BUT is it fair for the people that didn't want to put the money into registering them to get by cheaply. NO!!!!

It isn't required for 4H to have registered horses. That is a good market for the horses that people don't want to register.

My thoughts are if we open this can of worms and allow geldings, soon it will be registering grade mares and stallions because "you allowed geldings why not the others".

All it does is encourage the backyard breeder to continue what they are doing by not registering or trying to improve the breed.

 

[~Lisa~]

Mary I thought the same thing just up the hardship fee to an amount that people will have to think long and hard about the quality of their gelding.

Maybe even put a time limit on it as well as a higher price say for the year of 2011 only or thru 2012 something like that

As of now for the next couple of years anyone can buy a grade gelding now and hardship it in AMHA then into AMHR anyway

 

[txminipinto]

I had a similar conversation with my farrier over this BEFORE the proposal came out. I didn't even have to think about. I'm a breeder. I geld my colts. I want/need people to buy my colts and show them. It does myself and other breeders a huge disservice to allow grade animals to be registered even if they have "non breeding" papers. Her question was what about performance? I'd still be upset if a grade animal beat my registered animal in any event. I've worked very hard to have form to function bred ponies that do well. It would undermine my program as well as others.

 

[rcfarm]

I agree, but I wish I could reg. my gelding. Has good blood lines . I know his breeding only reason he is not reg. Is his dam is only A reg.

But I am happy driving him in local shows and starting to do CDE's.

 

[ruffian]

I can see both sides of this issue. Obviously I would prefer to have folks buy only a registered colt, geld it, and show it. But in the real world there are hundreds of folks out there churning out unregistered foals and dumping them on unsuspecting buyers with the idea that the buyer will be able to "make their money back quick" by breeding their own stallion!!

Since both AMHA and AMHR are promoting geldings, I'd prefer to have geldings in kids hands, and miniature geldings are the BEST, I think being able to hardship a gelding - at a reasonable but fair fee - should be allowed. $300-$400 would mean that someone would have to think pretty hard about hardshipping a gelding in. If it's a fantastic little horse and beats mine in the ring, so be it. If it's owned by someone who is severely barn blind, then perhaps I beat it in the ring. Either way the registries have more income in inspection fees, hardship fees, membership, transfer fees, and possibly show fees. Someone is enjoying a nice gelding that is not affecting the gene pool.

I believe that the POA registry still allows geldings to be registered, and that isn't affecting the "breed" at all.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

LaVern, it was kind of you to post that statement. It's brought up some interesting points I hadn't considered, and I thank you for that. At the same time I'm startled by many of the replies.

I'd still be upset if a grade animal beat my registered animal in any event. I've worked very hard to have form to function bred ponies that do well. It would undermine my program as well as others.

IMO a good horse is a good horse, especially in a performance event. It is silly to be offended that a hardshipped horse beat a horse from registered parents in a breed where EVERY horse under 38" was eligible for equal registration status just a few years ago and half the currently registered horses don't have recorded pedigrees!

ESPECIALLY in the case of a gelding, who by definition is not going to pass on anything hidden that could affect the breed, how on earth does who their parents are matter?

I've seen plenty of grade-quality animals that happen to have papers and I bet you have too. All it means is that we know who their parents are- not that their parents were worth breeding.

I absolutely respect breeders who work their rumps off to produce good horses and of course they are the first place a serious shower is going to look for a new animal. As they should be! Quality is quality and should be sought after. But there are many of us who couldn't afford a big name and got into minis because we found that one special gelding for sale locally. Without that "gateway horse" to get us started, would we have ever moved on to a pedigreed animal from one of those big farms? Probably not! I simply don't see what harm it does to allow hardshipping again for a limited time and at sufficient expense. People will only pay big money to hardship good horses and if your (previously-)"registered animals" can't beat them then maybe that breeder needs to take a little better look at their program.

This is only my .02 from someone who does not breed, never will, and would have been devastated if the gelding I loved had been eligible for nothing except being given away to be used for 4-H, competing in the two mini-friendly classes at the local saddleclub shows or going to the one or two CDE's a year that most parts of the country don't even offer. Breeders may be the backbone of the registry but without people to DO something with the horses you produce, they aren't going to be worth much. Let's continue to bring new people in in every way possible!

Leia

P.S.- That gelding I mentioned was not hardshipped but might as well have been. He has no recorded pedigree under one registry and only two generations of absolute nobodies under the other. Am I proud of that? No. He's a gateway horse, but I love him and resent the idea that he somehow doesn't deserve to win if I worked my butt off training him and he performs better than the other horse. Speaking of pushing buttons!

Sorry to go off on the subject.