Measurement issue with a purchase

[Genie]

I saw the e-mail that my friend sent to confirm height prior to hiring the shipper, and they replied and confirmed the horse at 26 inches. (I thought she had said 27, but actually they had said she was 26 and she measured at close to 30 inches)

She has talked to them and I haven't heard the outcome of that discussion.

I would think that they should refund her the shipping cost as she would not have sent the shipper if the horse was close to 30 inches because she would not have wanted it.

She will sell the horse now and whoever buys her will have quite a shipping fee as they are kind of remote, unless she finds someone nearby interested.

 

[minie812]

wow...4" is huge as far as I am concerned. Thats a shame for that to have happened to her

 

[Joanne]

As has been noted in other forum topics, there are several things involved in an accurate measurement.

How long since the horse's feet were trimmed.

A level surface that the measurement was done.

A accurate measuring stick that has a level on it.

Knowing where to measure and how to have the horse set up correctly.

Ideally at least two people to do the measurement. One to set up the horse, and a second that just handles the measuring stick.

 

[Sandee]

Yes, so much can influence the measuring - including who's doing it and where. I bought a horse who had permanent AMHA papers that read 33.75 which means he measured that at age 5 ( and it was from an "A" judge). For the life of me, I couldn't my stick on him to read under 35! I wasn't very happy but I went to a steward at an AMHR show that does both AMHA & R and he sticked him at 34" and showed me the stick when I couldn't get my jaw off the floor! This same guy measured 34" at Nationals a year or so later.

Also my 2 yr old filly measured an 1" different in one month's time between showing at an "A" and the next month at an "R" show. She "grew" an inch in a month!

 

[Sue_C.]

I agree a horse can measure a BIT different...but come-ON...3 or four INCHES...Good Grief!

As far as I am concerned...in an instance like this, it should not be "buyer beware" at all...the seller signed that transfer, and whatever that height that was on that paper, should BE the height of that horse. PERIOD!

We allow far too many "mistakes" to be made by sellers, from what I am always reading here. Perhaps it is time we expected them to be as honest as they shoud be...as I and most other breeders and sellers do strive to be.

This is something that affects us all, and to simply pass it off as another "oh well, so and so got scre$#& over...tsk-tsk...buyer beware...

Meanwhile the seller is home counting their money...

 

[Genie]

I really appreciate all the replies and your advice.

It's a shame that something like this has to be aired on a forum.

Let's just do the right thing when selling our horses.

The mare is lovely but the buyer is looking for 26 and 27 inch horses for her market.

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

 

[RJRMINIS]

Well I will say, I have had the same experience, a few years ago I went to look at a stallion out of state advertised at 28" when we got there, I measured him and I got 31", I watched her/the seller walk him around and remeasure him and get 29" I ended up buying him and got home and I measured him at 30"-30 1/2" depending on how he was standing, this was all in the same day.

I always allow an 1" on the height on how people measure...but it is very important to ask if they are measureing with a mini measuring stick/vs a tape measure, or if they are in the pen, or on a concrete level surface. Also if the hooves need trimmed, or if they have just been trimmed will make a difference. I have seen people stretch them out to get a smaller height, I like to know the height of them standing normal on an even surface....I think that if you are strictly wanting to buy a certain height you either take the chance on trusting their measurement, or make the trip to see for yourself.

 

[rvcsherman]

Make sure your friend does NOT sign the transfer!!!! Was this a mature mare with permanent papers? If your friend corrects the height & signs the transfer AMHA will tell her there's nothing they can or WILL do. I had this happen to me. It's the reason I got out of breeding & showing minis.

Contact the seller first & if that doesn't work contact AMHA but don't sign those papers until you contact AMHA!!!

I bought a 26.75" 5yr old breeding stallion from an out of state breeder. The stallion had just went permanent a few months before I bought him. When the stallion was delivered he was 29.75". I had spoke with the seller by phone several times over 2 yrs before I purchased anything from him so I trusted him. I figured I was sent the wrong horse by mistake. I was shocked when the seller told me to trim his hooves. I specialized in minis 28" & under so a stallion that was almost 30" was completely useless to me.

 

[Genie]

Wow, thank you for this info.

 

[krissy3]

I know I sound like a broken record... but lieing about height seems to be a standard practice with imports...there is no way to send it back, and with the buyer not speaking English well enough they often can do nothing about it . They continue breeding an oversized mare here to smaller stallion in hopes to have a small filly, but usually dont get one. The cycle continues, and more and more oversized miniatures are sold as AMHA foals. The unexpierenced buyer which is 99% of them here because this is a new breed ,will buy the foal thinking they can show it , only to find out at the first show that its an AMHR horses , and sorry but there are no shows yet for this size breed. bad situation...I think it is very hard to keep such a small breed , small. There will always be a mare, or stallion somewhere in the pedigree that has a false measurement, and there will be a throwback of an oversized foal. This is just my oppinion. If we cant control the lieing , then i think we should offer these people a chance to show their horses that have outgrown their papers in AMHR classes. I think the demand for AMHR shows is even more in demand now , with so many foals outgrowing the height status sometimes because of irresponsible breeding , or untruthful sellers. If anyone wants to know who these sellers are you can ask me, but I will never post them publicly on a forum.

 

[Minimor]

krissy, with all these oversize AMHA horses that are now AMHR only, I'd think that you'd have no trouble getting enough horses/people together to run an AMHR show. Find someone to manage a show & get things started, and you'll be off & running. I thought there were no (or very few) AMHR shows in Europe because there were hardly any AMHR horses, but sounds like that is not the case at all. From what you say there must be plenty of horses to fill an AMHR show. If owners want to show and cannot show AMHA then I'd think there'd be plenty of them willing to help with organizing a show.

 

[alphahorses]

I'm sorry your friend is in this situation, but I have to agree with those who are suggesting there are 2 sides to every story, and this could be simple case of someone not measuring properly.

Seems like when this type of thing gets posted, people jump to the conclusion that the person who has no chance to respond has intentionally done something wrong. As someone stated, there are a LOT of things that can affect measurement from where they are standing to the type of stick they are using.

We also don't know what else was discussed in the agreement. For example, it might have been stated that the sale was "as is" in which case it doesn't really matter what height the horse is.

I can not imagine buying a horse and spending $1200 to ship it and not having a contract - especially if I had certain criteria - like height - that were critical to my breeding program. I think the lesson learned here take the time to get a contract. If the buyer won't put one together, do it yourself and send it to them to sign. There are a lot of people on this forum who would gladly provide examples. If they refuse to work with you on a contract, either walk away or assume the sale is "as is".

When I had smaller minis, I often offered the seller the right to have a 3rd party measure the horse before it was shipped. I was always amazed at how many people would pay thousands for a mini, but didn't bother with getting a second opinion on height (or having a vet check done. In the "big show horse world" you ALWAYS had vet checks done!)

 

[Genie]

I'm sorry your friend is in this situation, but I have to agree with those who are suggesting there are 2 sides to every story, and this could be simple case of someone not measuring properly.
Seems like when this type of thing gets posted, people jump to the conclusion that the person who has no chance to respond has intentionally done something wrong. As someone stated, there are a LOT of things that can affect measurement from where they are standing to the type of stick they are using.

We also don't know what else was discussed in the agreement. For example, it might have been stated that the sale was "as is" in which case it doesn't really matter what height the horse is.

I can not imagine buying a horse and spending $1200 to ship it and not having a contract - especially if I had certain criteria - like height - that were critical to my breeding program. I think the lesson learned here take the time to get a contract. If the buyer won't put one together, do it yourself and send it to them to sign. There are a lot of people on this forum who would gladly provide examples. If they refuse to work with you on a contract, either walk away or assume the sale is "as is".

When I had smaller minis, I often offered the seller the right to have a 3rd party measure the horse before it was shipped. I was always amazed at how many people would pay thousands for a mini, but didn't bother with getting a second opinion on height (or having a vet check done. In the "big show horse world" you ALWAYS had vet checks done!)

Both parties could post , and for my friend it would only mean joining the forum and asking the question, she reads the forum. The seller is a forum member.

My friend was only wishing some guidance as to how to pursue the matter and I asked permission to get some feedback from a larger group of people who have more experience.

I believe that my friend felt that with the web site stating height, and the seller personally verified on follow up e-mail, and as well seller wrote the height on the transfer papers, how much difference could a contract make?

I expect a contract wouldn't be much of a deterrent since the legal costs to pursue the issue would not make sense and as we have seen in other cases a judgement can be made and the guilty party just refuses to pay.

That is why I couldn't get a loan in the U.S. without U.S. collateral being pledged and Americans are not liable to be loaned money in Canada, without Canadian collateral being pledged, since if there is a default you are usually out of luck.

It's interesting that in most cases with our little horses these measurement issues are always about having a taller horse than the seller states.

What difference does the type of measuring stick make? isn't 26 inches 26 inches?

I have not had the experience personally, that if a horse needs hooves trimmed or being "being fed more" for a long trip, or being measured 5 different ways, can be out 3.5 to 4 inches.

Are people still measuring to the last hair of the mane? Maybe this is where the problem is?

 

[Minimor]

A contract makes a difference in that it specifies the horse's height and specifies what will be done to correct the problem in the event that the horse does not measure at that height when it arrives at the buyer's property...or it should specify those things if height is a major concern to the buyer. If all that was in the contract in this instance, your friend would now know what her options are--if she can return the horse for a credit or refund, if the seller will reimburse her for the transport and pay return shipping or if she is just out the amount of shipping.

The type of stick used does make a difference in measurement. Those with the fold down arm may measure differently from those with the solid arm--and if the fold down arm is especially loose/floppy then it may measure even more 'off'. If the person is using a yardstick and holding a stick across the horse's back to take the measurement it will probably measure different than if a proper stick is used, and if the person is measuring with a tape measure it may be very off.

And of course the seller doesn't have to be "crooked" at all--he/she may have been shown (as I have already said) to measure a horse by posing it in a stretched stance with the front legs apart & the head pulled up--if that's how they've been taught to measure by someone (another seller maybe) that they trust to know what they're doing, then that's how they will measure. They may not know it is wrong. Maybe they've been shown to measure at the lowest point of the back.

There again, a contract could specify how the horse is measured--a contract could specify that the horse is to be stood square, with the front legs not spraddled, and the head in a normal position, not pulled up, and measurement to be taken at the last mane hair. That way, if the horse arrives & is too tall, seller cannot say "well, stand him this way and he will measure at what I said he did"

 

[shoegirl]

Very sorry to hear about your friend. I have learned that lesson myself. I have done business with some great mini people and then I have been very disappointed. I don't believe there is much you can do. I feel when folks decide to be dishonest they will get theirs in time.

I put a deposit on a colt asked all the questions any horse person would ask and to my surprise after driving 5 hours to get the colt.............the sire who is double registered at 34" turned out to be 37" tall. Very frustrating but the place was such a mess I had to bring him home and very glad I did.

 

[Genie]

Very sorry to hear about your friend. I have learned that lesson myself. I have done business with some great mini people and then I have been very disappointed. I don't believe there is much you can do. I feel when folks decide to be dishonest they will get theirs in time.
I put a deposit on a colt asked all the questions any horse person would ask and to my surprise after driving 5 hours to get the colt.............the sire who is double registered at 34" turned out to be 37" tall. Very frustrating but the place was such a mess I had to bring him home and very glad I did.

It was nice that you rescued him anyway

A really appreciate all the responses and if the topic does nothing else, it at least gives us a wider scope of questions to ask and options to pursue when trying to do business long distance.

I have had two very good experiences purchasing long distance.

I think we have seen this before on the forum, but a list of do's and don't from both the buyer and seller's point of view, would be helpful.

Sort of a checklist to go thru before sending a deposit so we don't miss anything.

I also drove 4.5 hours to buy a 28.75 stallion that was more like 31 inches and only 2 years old. I took my measuring stick and when I said he was more like 31, the seller didn't even question my measurement, just said "oh, sorry" .

If I had been the seller and had told someone that I measured 3 or 4 different ways and could not get him to 29 inches, then I think I would have questioned the buyer who said he was more like 31.

 

[sdmini]

Are people still measuring to the last hair of the mane? Maybe this is where the problem is?

Yes, the last mane hair is the correct spot to measure.

 

[krissy3]

krissy, with all these oversize AMHA horses that are now AMHR only, I'd think that you'd have no trouble getting enough horses/people together to run an AMHR show. Find someone to manage a show & get things started, and you'll be off & running. I thought there were no (or very few) AMHR shows in Europe because there were hardly any AMHR horses, but sounds like that is not the case at all. From what you say there must be plenty of horses to fill an AMHR show. If owners want to show and cannot show AMHA then I'd think there'd be plenty of them willing to help with organizing a show.

These breeders will not allow their horses to go to the shows because they are breeding them as AMHA !!! we need to have shows in hopes to stop the cycle of lieing.If there are no shows then there is no use for these horses but to continue the lieing and produce foals ... you know this ...I dont need to explaine this to you. Do any of you know there is a 350. charge to open a garnet that allows you to travel to another country with your horse? Do you really think someone is going to pay that price for a mare that can make more money staying at home in the back pasture producing foals with false height measurements? I have the money...I am not a breeder ...i will waste my money to open a garnet to show my horse in the only non schooling show within 3 countries of where I live, most people will not do this, most people do not have the money to do this. Breeders will for sure to promote their horses, but you bet the oversized broodmares with false records will stay at home.

 

[~Lisa~]

Krissy shows or no shows people will still choose to lie about the size of horses in their breeding program. A show will not stop that.

Do you all measure differently there do you do top of the withers? If so that could be the problem. I know in large horses when people from other countries want to purchase horses they have an agent here in the US that goes to see the horses (and in their case ride them) vet them - in case of minis - measure them the way it is done in the country the horse is going to and then proceed with the purchase- those agents also usually take care of getting the horse to quarrintine as well

 

[krissy3]

Krissy shows or no shows people will still choose to lie about the size of horses in their breeding program. A show will not stop that.
Do you all measure differently there do you do top of the withers? If so that could be the problem. I know in large horses when people from other countries want to purchase horses they have an agent here in the US that goes to see the horses (and in their case ride them) vet them - in case of minis - measure them the way it is done in the country the horse is going to and then proceed with the purchase- those agents also usually take care of getting the horse to quarrintine as well

we measure at the last hair on the mane. My friends horse was severly comformationaly "deformed" the vet here was appauled. so I think the "spoks person -vet check " done in the US was out to lunch ...literally.we measure on concrete, level ground. and your right a show wont stop the integrady (sp) of the breeder - seller... but it will help those that were victoms of the irresponsible sellers. It will offer these horses a carrier, and some fun for their owners, instead of them feeling like they have been raked over the coals.If there were AMHR shows I know at least 2 breeders that would correct measurements that were fraud from the previous breeder. A lot of us like the looks of an AMHR horse, and would love to start breeding them, but why if there are no shows?