OhHorsePee
Well-Known Member
dinno28, what a great fact filled post!
It is sad to even think how many horses/ponies this will effect in a negative way.
What an awesome idea- that's very interesting!I decided to do a little research into horses measured as a shetland (totw) and as an AMHR miniature (LMH). Information was gathered from the Sale of the Century listing link and can be viewed at http://www.whirlwindproduction.com/auction/century/
20 animals were measured as both a miniature and as a shetland by AMHR/ASPC President Larry Parnell. Measurements were in full view of the public and webcast live online, Several board members were also in attendance. The largest difference in measurement was 3 inches
(lot 1 Wall Street Rock E The Rock totw- 40.25, lmh-37.25, and lot #20 Wall Street Rock E Rock on totw-41", lmh-38")and the smallest difference in measurement was .75" (lot #38 Wall Street Rock E Rock on Lisa E totw-38", lmh-37.25").
Of the 20 animals legally measured and eligible for AMHR registration only 5 would measure 38 or under if the proposed charge were to go into effect. The average ASPC measurement was 39.0375(totw) and the average AMHR measurement was 37.425(lmh) with an average difference of 1.6125".
horses/ponies are listed below with the first measurement being top of the withers and second measurement being the last mane hair:
lot 1 Wall Street ROck E The Rock 40.25" totw, 37.25" lmh
lot 5 Michigan's Distinct Image 39.5" totw, 38" lmh
lot 6 Wall Street Navigator's First Shot 37" totw, 35.25" lmh
lot 8 Wall Street Rock E Red Red Hot 39" totw, 37.75" lmh
lot 9 Red Rock Kids Sweet Tooth 39.5" totw, 38" lmh
lot 20 Wall Street Rock E Rock On 41" totw, 38" lmh
lot 23 Wall Street Illsions Rainy Day 39.75" totw, 38" lmh
lot 31 Wall Street Illusion's Onyx 39.5" totw, 38" lmh
lot 35 Colorful Miss Wiser 38" totw, 36.75" lmh
lot 37 Wa-Full Betty Boop 38" totw, 36.25" lmh
lot 38 Wall Street Rock E Rock on Lisa E 38" totw, 37.25" lmh
lot 42 Rhapsody's Merry Madonna 39.5" totw, 37.75" lmh
lot 44 Rhapsody In Red 39" totw, 37.25" lmh
lot 47 Wall Street Rock E Rockstar 38.5" totw, 37.5" lmh
lot 50 Rhapsody's Bound For Glory 39.25" totw, 38" lmh
lot 61 Vermilyea Farms Good as Gold 38" totw, 37" lmh
lot 65 Mccalls Lucky Lady Cody 39.25" totw, 37" lmh
lot 75 Wall Street Head's Up Phantom 39.5" totw, 38" lmh
lot 84 Wall Street Rock E Harryetta Potter 39" totw, 37.5" lmh
lot 87 Wall Street Illusion Chrystal Charmed 39.5" totw, 37.5" lmh
Unless there is an adjustment to our current height divisions (ie 36"-40" for the over division, and 36" and under for the under division) I cannot support this proposal. From this sample we would we would be shrinking the average miniature height by 1.6"
At a time when our registry is operating in the red and new registrations are significantly down. Passing a proposal that would strongly discourage the breeding of mares and stallions that currently legally measure 36.5"-38" can not be seen as fiscally responsible. Not to mention the reduction in the genetic pool.
Don't confuse registration numbers with genetics. The miniature horse has been inbred profusely, shrinking its gene pool. The shetland has been outcrossed expanding its genetics. While there are definitely more miniatures in the world than shetlands, the shetlands have a much larger gene pool which is why you see less deformaties.I am a bit confused on one thing.. I keep hearing talk of bringing more blood into the minis more new blood.. isnt the ASPC gene pool MUCH smaller then the mini one?
I am a bit confused on one thing.. I keep hearing talk of bringing more blood into the minis more new blood.. isnt the ASPC gene pool MUCH smaller then the mini one?
I agree off topic! Please let's try to keep this germane to what this thread is all about and not bait a battle.I think that is off topic for this measurement proposal thread.
Why thank you for that Trace and Fran.. Was mearly asking a question of a statement that was posted on this thread about how much new blood ASPC is bringing into the minis. by Dinno28 whose post you all addressedI think that is off topic for this measurement proposal thread.
So was not really taking it off topic as it was put on THIS TOPIC by someone else....Not to mention the reduction in the genetic pool.
I actually agree with the rest of this post about being fair to everyone or improving the breed, but I raised an eyebrow over the Justin Morgan comparison. Really?? The whole point of that story is that pretty is as pretty does, and I don't see a whole lot of the tinies "out-pulling, out-working, or out-trotting" their larger counterparts!Songcatcher said:I think we've got to decide if we want to be FAIR to everyone, or if we want to improve the breed. SOME people here have clearly stated that they believe BIGGER IS BETTER. I DISAGREE! Have any of you read the book, Justin Morgan Had A Horse? The original Morgan horse was considered a runt and a cull by almost everyone except Justin Morgan. He eventually prooved he could out work, out pull, out ride, and out produce much larger horses. I am not going to sit back and accept that bigger is better.
You can't kick out a horse who was never registered in the first place.midnight star stables said:Except that is just NOT true! Without raising the height limit, there will be horses KICKED OUT! Not the current horses, but many current breeding stock horses will undoubtedly produce foals and stock that WILL go over.
I feel sort of sorry for your horse, Des.midnight star stables said:And, again with out raising the height, my 33" LHOTM show horse would be worth much less in my eyes. Sure, she could keep showing as an "A", but likely her foals would go over, and no body wants a horse that is just over into another division.
No offense, but you're already risking having a grade horse just by breeding two horses at the top of the current height range. I understand your feelings on this but let's be realistic...it's a risk we take.midnight star stables said:I have a AMHR only mare that is around 37-38" LHOTM who is being bred to a 38" LHOTM stallion. I have spent over $4000 on this breeding... for what a GRADE horse?! That is just plain ridiculous and I would be devastated if that were the case.
height is the easiest thing to correct in your breeding programme, bad genetics is much harder to fix
i believe that people have to have more respect for your type of mini whether its 30" or 36" we dont all like what other
people breed but thats just your own opinion,
what will happen when the AMHR and ASPC inter breed? what will that horse be called? and then what will happen when
they breed with AMHA horses?
next time i import any horses they will be ASPC but no doubt i will get it in the neck for bringing in SHETLANDS
which is to the BIGGEST insult that goes around over here
You know what, if you like the Shetlands and you want to import an ASPC pony (or two or three of them!) you just do it, and never mind what others around you will say about them. Because if you pick some nice ones, and you bring them in and then promote them--even if there aren't any shows that offer ASPC classes, if you can take them out to some exhibitions and put them in open classes, or just give demos with them, or just plain show them to people that come to your place to see your horses, you will find that they get a lot of attention. Many people will be surprised at what they look like--you will get people saying I'VE NEVER SEEN SHETLANDS THAT LOOK LIKE THAT BEFORE or THOSE ARE THE BEST LOOKING SHETLANDS I'VE EVER SEEN, and you will find that your ponies have quite a following!! Never mind those that would put your ponies down just because they are ponies--yes, for many people "pony" is a dirty word. People will talk and complain behind your back. If you point blank ask those people what their problem with ponies is, they probably won't be able to tell you, or at least they won't tell you--they'll just deny that they have any problem! The ponies are beautiful creatures--watch out, because if you get one of them you just might find that you are suddenly hooked on ponies!!next time I import any horses they will be ASPC but no doubt i will get it in the neck for bringing in SHETLANDS which is to the BIGGEST insult that goes around over here
My understanding is that the proposal is for the base of the withers - not the top of the withers. Which personally I think is as arbitrary as last hair on the main. Does anyone have the actual proposal? If I missed it somewhere in this 26 pages I am sorry.
I am proud to say that my farm is now shetlands and show ponies. For years I was duped into not getting a shetland. Yes, I still have a mini, but after the last time I went to nationals, I was disgusted to watch a grown woman cry (I mean bawl like a child) because those "dxxm" shetlands were winning everything.Carin, the sad truth is, Shetlands do seem to offend many people. I don't know what it is, but it's as if "shetland" is a dirty word for some.
You know what, if you like the Shetlands and you want to import an ASPC pony (or two or three of them!) you just do it, and never mind what others around you will say about them. Because if you pick some nice ones, and you bring them in and then promote them--even if there aren't any shows that offer ASPC classes, if you can take them out to some exhibitions and put them in open classes, or just give demos with them, or just plain show them to people that come to your place to see your horses, you will find that they get a lot of attention. Many people will be surprised at what they look like--you will get people saying I'VE NEVER SEEN SHETLANDS THAT LOOK LIKE THAT BEFORE or THOSE ARE THE BEST LOOKING SHETLANDS I'VE EVER SEEN, and you will find that your ponies have quite a following!! Never mind those that would put your ponies down just because they are ponies--yes, for many people "pony" is a dirty word. People will talk and complain behind your back. If you point blank ask those people what their problem with ponies is, they probably won't be able to tell you, or at least they won't tell you--they'll just deny that they have any problem! The ponies are beautiful creatures--watch out, because if you get one of them you just might find that you are suddenly hooked on ponies!!
And yes, I speak from experience!!
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