Measuring Proposal

[Jacki Loomis]

With AMHR Nationals going on and the discussions there about measuring, I'm wondering if any of you changed your opinions about the measuring change proposal that we discussed here on the forum recently? Do you feel that measuring would benefit from some adjustments/changes or are you satisfied with how it is now?

Jacki

[email protected]

 

[Minimor]

Well, from what I've heard, one change that needs to be made is to teach all witnesses the difference between a horse standing stretched, square and UNDER itself.

A witness making a horse stand under itself (and a steward going along with that!) for measuring is every bit as wrong as the measurement officials allowing a handler to stand the horse stretched for measuring.

If the measurement crew can't figure out the difference between standing stretched, standing square and standing under then I would have to say that I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference WHERE the measurement point is. If they cannot figure out stance then last mane hair or top of the withers makes no difference at all. Why bother to change the rules & have to re-write the measurement-related portions of the rulebook??? Leave it as it is.

And I know that I'm not the only one that thinks having a witness who also has horses entered in the show where he/she is acting as witness is a conflict of interest. A HUGE conflict of interest. And yet it was apparently allowed to happen at both Nationals and Congress this year? Surely to goodness at both shows some witnesses that don't have horses entered in the show could be found??

Ooops, there was my outdoor voice again.

 

[minifreishorsefarm]

I dont know anything about showing. But have been watching the nationals and there are some REALLY big horses on there! Wspecially yesterday afternoon and last night. They all looked like they are shetland ponies or their handlers were all pretty short, lol. Beautiful horses though no matter the size!

Marsha

 

[Belinda]

All I can say about the witness that were here at Nationals , Lea Dill had NO horses entered or was she showing.. The other witness that was there part time is a apprentice steward and was not their self showing in any class !!! And just about every show I go to the witness is someone that is there showing ,

And 90% of the time the main witness for Everyone was the 3rd steward . NO one that was just standing there said one word to the steward about how the horses were standing .. and measuring is open to anyone at the show to watch. And I was up there lots, and there were times folks standing in line voiced their opinon as to how they felt about how a horse was setup , good or bad.. Can not control the gallery !!

And if anything after this week I am not so sure that the last hair of the mane is the answer .. Guess what we found ,,,,, mane hair that had been glued in that had fallen out and one big clump was in the arena !!!

Also some was found around the measuring area . one thing about it you CAN NOT GLUE IN A WITHER a!!!!!!

Not sure what the answer is !!??????

 

[~Lisa~]

And if anything after this week I am not so sure that the last hair of the mane is the answer .. Guess what we found ,,,,, mane hair that had been glued in that had fallen out and one big clump was in the arena !!!

Also some was found around the measuring area . one thing about it you CAN NOT GLUE IN A WITHER a!!!!!!

Not sure what the answer is !!??????

Ok I am not sure if that is shocking- or funny I guess a combo of both.

 

[MindyLee]

OMG!!!!!!

Someone actually glued in hair! What the ****!!! Are you kiding me; that is so stupid and such ********!!!

That's going way low when it comes to cheating!!!

I say if you dont like the horses actual height, STOP CHEATING! and get a new horse!

WOW! is all I have to say in the end to that one.

 

[Minimor]

Given the number of people who I heard have complained about the stance being requested by that apprentice steward...an apprentice steward should know what a horse standing "square" looks like. And IMO it doesn't matter if the person is taking his horses into the ring himself or if a trainer is doing it for him--owning a horse that is entered in the show makes it a conflict of interest to act as witness to the measuring. Here our witness is never someone who is showing.

I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that some were gluing in mane hair--we've been told other years that is being done. Seriously, when a horse gets measured at the lowest point of its back because that is where the mane ends, you know there is something fishy going on there. In 40+ years of horse ownership, of all the horses I've seen, which is a lot of different breeds at a lot of different shows and farms, there hasn't been a one of them that had mane all the way down to the lowest point of its back!

Measure to the top of the withers then, but only if heights aren't reduced. If it's moved to the top of the withers then change the maximum height to 39" or 40" to keep horses the same size they are now. I do NOT want to see it changed to 38" at the top of the withers. I said that before & I say the same thing now.

And, if measuring at the top of the withers, make sure the stewards knows the top of the withers is the highest point on the withers--it is NOT the dip just in front of the withers, which is where I've heard some people, including at least a couple of stewards, think that it is.

 

[Relic]

at least glueing [sp] isn't as bad as some people who actually go to the trouble of having each mane strand sewn in...poor minis.

 

[susanne]

at least glueing [sp] isn't as bad as some people who actually go to the trouble of having each mane strand sewn in...poor minis.

Hair Club for Minis ??

 

[~Lisa~]

I think we should video the entire measuring process in otherwords no horse gets measured in without being video taped. If there is a protest then not only is the horse remeasured but the video of original measurement will be watched to see how the steward allowed the horse to stand to measure the first time.

If a steward consistently measures horses splayed out and allows large horses in the show ring then they must have consequences.

I was not there so alot of here say and by now the rumors have spread wild about measuring. I cant comment on it as I do not know what actually happened or what was said by or to officals but I do think everyone would be a bit more accurate if voices and actions were video taped

 

[susanne]

I do think everyone would be a bit more accurate if voices and actions were video taped

I agree, Lisa.

It would also stop or expose those who intimidate the steward in order to get their horse measured in.

 

[Jacki Loomis]

All I can say about the witness that were here at Nationals , Lea Dill had NO horses entered or was she showing.. The other witness that was there part time is a apprentice steward and was not their self showing in any class !!! And just about every show I go to the witness is someone that is there showing ,

And 90% of the time the main witness for Everyone was the 3rd steward . NO one that was just standing there said one word to the steward about how the horses were standing .. and measuring is open to anyone at the show to watch. And I was up there lots, and there were times folks standing in line voiced their opinon as to how they felt about how a horse was setup , good or bad.. Can not control the gallery !!

And if anything after this week I am not so sure that the last hair of the mane is the answer .. Guess what we found ,,,,, mane hair that had been glued in that had fallen out and one big clump was in the arena !!!

Also some was found around the measuring area . one thing about it you CAN NOT GLUE IN A WITHER a!!!!!!

Not sure what the answer is !!??????

The discussions I had with various people about their opinions on measuring did change my mind, I was not in favor of changing the measuring prior to hearing the well thought out opinions of some of my fellow exhibitors. I'm unsure still on if the current wither measuring proposal that includes a grandfathering clause is the answer though so I'll just hope the BOD and membership at convention agree on a proposal that works for the majority.

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]

 

[susanne]

As I see it, changing the height limit to 39 or 40 inches is a necessary part of changing the point of measurement to the top of the withers -- not merely grandfathering existing horses, but keeping the REAL height as it is now.

Those who feel that's letting in "larger" horses -- or those who are horrified their 28 inch horse now measures 29 or 30 inches -- need a reality check.

The size horse stays the same, it's just a matter of semantics. To think otherwise is to be guilty of believing one's own publicity

 

[Mominis]

As I see it, changing the height limit to 39 or 40 inches is a necessary part of changing the point of measurement to the top of the withers -- not merely grandfathering existing horses, but keeping the REAL height as it is now.

Those who feel that's letting in "larger" horses -- or those who are horrified their 28 inch horse now measures 29 or 30 inches -- need a reality check.

The size horse stays the same, it's just a matter of semantics. To think otherwise is to be guilty of believing one's own publicity

 

[Barbie]

I was not at Nationals, but do have a couple of friends whose horses measured way taller than ever before. Exhibitors shouldn't receive a big surprise when measured at Nationals. It was obvious as I watched their classes that both horses who measured taller were very definitely the smallest horses in the class.

Measuring is always a problem. It will be interesting to see how it goes at Worlds. The same person who measured all the Regional shows will be measuring at Worlds and it will be video taped.

I don't know what the answer is, but do know the measuring changes from show to show and somehow that doesn't see right.

Barbie

 

[Belinda]

Actually the person that witness for the stewards is suppose to let the steward know if the horse is standing correct ..

Below is how the horse is suppose to stand according to the rule book.

.

Part 6 – Position of Animal

The animal must be standing squarely on all four feet and

should not be permitted to “stretch”. The front legs should

be on a vertical line directly under the shoulder. The back

of the hocks should be in a vertical line with the animal’s

buttocks. The horse/pony’s head must be held low enough

to reveal the highest point of the withers and no lower. The

103

animal must be free of blanket, hood, neck wrap and tail

set to verify the description on the registration paper to the

animal being measured. The handler must not interfere

with the animal in any way that will prevent it from

standing in this position.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I would dearly love to see measurement 'cleaned up'. I have LONG supported measurement at the highest point of the withers.It makes sense in a myriad of ways!

As to what Minimor commented...I can't BELIEVE that anyone holding ANY card to judge horses could be so ignorant of conformation as to think that the 'dip'that can be visible on some horses, in front of the withers, could in ANY way be construed as the 'highest point of the withers'! Now THAT is scary!

Hand in hand with top-of-the-wither measurement, I would support raising the maximum height by an inch or at most, two(though I strongly believe that one and one-half would be adequate, even in R 'over' horses), in either or both major registries, in order to maintain the heights as they already are. Susanne said it right...the horses WON'T BE, in actuality,ANY taller!!

Margo

 

[~Lisa~]

Yes we need to fix measuring no doubt about it but every year everyone complains on these forums about the big horses showing.. the reality is if you are not willing to put up your 100 bucks and file a protest then deal with the big horses.

It is not fair that a person filing is deemed a poor sport and I do think anyone that is a member should be able to make a protest even if not in the class but that doesnt change the fact IMO that if you were in a class with a huge horse and were not willing to put up your money (even though there is a stigma that goes with it) then you should not come to the forums to complain as that will do no good

 

[maestoso]

Personally the change I would like to see is for only one person to be measuring and only one witnessing. I understand that this would require a huge time commitment and would mean measuring would take a lot longer, but any subjectivity that is involved with measuring(what is square, what is the last mane hair, etc) is going to be magnified if several different people are making that decision. If it were only one set of people measuring, at least everyone would be facing the same thing. If it's a really strict measurer, it will be a really strict measurer for everyone. I know nobody likes to compare R's with A's, but I think A's had it right this year when the same measurer and witness worked for all three regionals and it will be the same people at worlds. That brings a certain amount of consistency to it, and consistency is what we need.

It is pretty obvious that measuring is much more relaxed at local shows. I suppose most of us know this, but that doesn't stop anyone from getting frustrated about working hard all year long and getting in all year long and then measuring at at nationals, where it really counts.

I don't think it would solve all the problems, but at least then we wouldn't be hearing people strategize over what steward they want to measure under etc. That itself suggests inconsistency, which in my opinion, is what causes most problems.

 

[Minimor]

Actually the person that witness for the stewards is suppose to let the steward know if the horse is standing correct ..

I never said differently, and nor did anyone else that I've noticed--not on this thread anyway!
My point was that the witness needs to know what constitutes "square" so that he/she doesn't instruct anyone to stand a horse UNDER rather than SQUARE...that was a common complaint this year, from what I've heard--some horses were being measured while standing under themselves with their front legs!