Measuring Proposal

[Norlea]

Well, actually it doesn't say they can't be parked out. It says "preferred" that the horse stand square but then it also says the horse is to be shown to its best advantage. If the owner feels the horse looks nicest when parked out and the judge doesn't ask for anything different, it's not against the rule at all to stand the horse parked out.

IMO the stance described in the rule book isn't quite correct when saying that the hocks are to be in line with the back edge of the buttocks...that works for a horse that is perfectly correct in conformation. A horse that is camped out will be standing seriously under himself in order to achieve that stance. IMO the horse should be positioned so that the cannons of the hind legs are vertical. It would be a lot easier for the camped out horse to stand that way--and he would still technically be standing square. Stretched would mean that is cannons are angled forward from bottom to top. But, I suspect that the majority of people cannot recongnize camped out conformation when they see it and will never be able to see the difference between camped out conformation and stretched position.

I see what you saying....

 

[Norlea]

I also want to add that I think getting worked up about measuring is not something I find important. I don't know why, but I don't see a big deal with tall horses, or horses measuring differently at different times.

They are living creatures, and just the fact that they have hooves which can be trimmed short, or with more heel, or left longer, can greatly affect the horses which are measured as accurately as 1/4 of an inch.

This year at Nationals, I see that two horses I previously owned and showed as mature driving horses were there. Both measured under or at 34" tall.

One rarely measured under 35" when I had him, and the other I got in a local club hoopla because he measured over 34" and then under 34" in the same year and I switched divisions (he is very borderline and can go either way depending on how you trim 1/4" of his foot). So both these horses have been shown plenty as Overs, and now are shown as Unders. No, they didn't "shrink" and I highly doubt some "shady measuring" was going on.

They are living animals. They move. They are not a piece of furniture with exact measurements.

No matter what solutions people come up with, no one will always be happy with the results.

Andrea

Not an exact science that is for sure......

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I still would like to see it measure to the withers BUT I am against raising our heights. So if that happens I will vote it down if I attend Convention. We need to fix the way we measure period.

 

[gvpalominominis]

I need help understanding how it can be logical that since horses typically are taller (Shetlands and Minis alike) at the top of the wither if their mane hair grows past that point, that if they change the measuring location to that higher point that they wouldn't also need to adjust the standard respectively?

What a recordkeeping nightmare that could be creating grandfathering records for currently registered horses. How many 36-38" horses are currently registerd?

What about peoples' breeding stock and programs, if the measuring location changes, and the offspring of those grandfathered registered horses are now an inch or more too tall to be registered at all based on this new location! Possibly years worth of planning, purchasing, breeding, showing those horse etc. lost? I think this could become a BIG issue and great thought should be considered about breeder's loss revenues in the future!

Sure current AMHR horses that are grandfathered in at 37-38" at the last mane hair but are now 39" or more at the top of the wither would be safe... but what about their babies? So, their babies end up over the NEW limits are no longer registerable or showable. Not good...

Or are all their offspring going to be grandfathered as well?

 

[OhHorsePee]

I pretty much thought I knew what square is!! But maybe the problem is, my being one of the witnesses, I did my best not to allow the horses to stretch nor splay the front legs out, nor crank their heads up in the air, nor touch or poke the horses back, nor lean on the horse, nor try to pull the horse forward or push the horse back as the stick was on the horse, nor dictate to the steward where the mane last hair was and WHAT CLASS THE HORSE HAD TO BE IN as many (Not ALL) tried to do and that is where the confusion started with them being told to stand square and keep their hands off the horse and allow the horse to hang its head naturel !!!! Maybe if the exhibitors/handlers/owners of these horses would be honest about the height of their horses, you would not be complaining about the stewards and the witnesses.

With the way the buzz was at the nationals, I am shocked we did not hear that complaint as we heard all the others. I personally would have welcome anyone coming to me and telling me their concerns.. I must admit I was not at the table for all the witnessing as I was a volunteer and did not have set hours to work... I came as a member/director to volunteer where I was needed.

I agree with the taping of the measuring, also no requesting a steward, I offer this suggestion for next year... red ball, blue ball, yellow ball in the box, you pick a ball (you can’t see what color your picking out of the box) whatever color you get is the steward who is that color for that day (steward picks a ball before starting to measure and will be that color for the day) and measures your one horse. You pick a color for every horse and I don't care if you have 10 horses, it would be pick of the draw as far as the steward who measures your horse... There were some who only wanted to go to one steward. The perception of that is way wrong while the other stewards sit and doing nothing. All this drama about the measuring, under themselves, stretched, way big and not one protest????????? Why is that?? Scared of the repercussions, not sure but sad to think one would be afraid to protest but again if we brought honest horses to be measured in. Would we have all the drama...

Also, do we really need to wait until the class is over???? I say post the height as the horses are being measured. You disagree with it, protest it, if it is your horse that measured out, under or over and you don’t agree with it, protest the measurement and get it re-measured by another steward. I say once you accept your measurement, you can be protested, none of this you have to go in the class crap or even be entered in the same class... One reason is, those who are eligible for championships have to complete with horses that were not in their original class. I say that is not fair that I cannot protest the height of a horse that I have to complete with in a grand class if you feel he is oversized for his age or class he entered to begin with. Let any owner or handler who has a horse entered in the nationals show be able to protest another horse that is entered in the national show... Boy would that clean up all these complaints that no one does anything about?

***My other idea that would really clean up the complaints is.. Of course start with horse standing square, everyone involved, steward, spotter, person bringing horse to be measured agree to last mane hair with no clue, thread or staples and horse is square.

The stick used to measure has no measurements on it... BLANK STICK.... Put stick to square horse.... witness that bubble is center, LOCK stick... Take BLANK stick to table where there is a stick that has MEASURMENTS ON IT. Lineup BLANK LOCKED stick next to stick with measurements on it. Now you have your measurement... Mechanically it could be designed to lay flush, even and precise. Now wouldn't that be playing Russian Roulette but I am sure people would bring honest horses to that blank stick to begin with?

We have used volunteer witnesses in the past, why this year such a big stink??? Out of all the people that exhibited, not one person came to complain about this with the exception of one person who did not think the one trainer & trainer/director should be there, they were not spotting the horses, they were just recording the measurements, after the one the complaint, they did not help out as it was no big deal to either person, they just thought they were helping out(as they did last year)as we had a big line of horses and all three stewards were measuring. THOUGH I feel anyone can watch the measurements. I am thinking we need a place to measure where we can sell admission passes for front row seating and donate the proceeds to the youth programs.

Seriously, I do believe we need to change the system somehow to make everyone all on the same playing field as many think it is not. We need to come to the convention at the general membership meeting this year, air these complaints and propose a new system to manage the measuring at nationals and congress. As a director/member who did not show but was at both the Congress and Nationals, I feel changes need to be made so that everyone can enjoy the shows and no drama.

Oh one more thing, I was confused at some of the minis showing parked out? What is that about? Where does it say mini's can park out? This is like a run away train with the parking out and no one seems to mind? If exceptable then change the rule below.

Page 250 B. The Miniature Horse is to be shown to its best

advantage. It is preferred that the horse stand square.

The Judge at his or her discretion may ask to have the

horse stand square, which means all four feet are flat

on the ground and at least one front and one rear

cannon bone perpendicular to the ground.

Lea, it was already proven that if protested the person does not have to agree to do anything and nothing would happen to that person who was protested. So why would people bother? And as far as "trainer & trainer/director" documenting measurements that is so wrong in many ways!!!

 

[alphahorses]

I offer this suggestion for next year... red ball, blue ball, yellow ball in the box, you pick a ball (you cant see what color your picking out of the box) whatever color you get is the steward who is that color for that day (steward picks a ball before starting to measure and will be that color for the day) and measures your one horse. You pick a color for every horse and I don't care if you have 10 horses, it would be pick of the draw as far as the steward who measures your horse...

The stick used to measure has no measurements on it... BLANK STICK.... Put stick to square horse.... witness that bubble is center, LOCK stick...

2 Excellent ideas!!

Might also think about having horses measured by multiple stewards. Or have them re-measured before they go in the championship classes.

 

[Norlea]

Lea, it was already proven that if protested the person does not have to agree to do anything and nothing would happen to that person who was protested. So why would people bother? And as far as "trainer & trainer/director" documenting measurements that is so wrong in many ways!!!

Good Morning Fran,

Didn't say it was wrong or right, just stated they have helped in the past and left when a complaint was made! All they were doing was recording the height on a list... But my opinion is if it bothered people then hire neutral witnesses that are not participating in the show. As far as a protest of height goes, I am not sure where a person did not have to do anything as I have witnessed over the years as a steward to protested heights and yes the horse had to be remeasured! As far as a protest where we need to clean up the rules where there is no way to police it if the person charged refuses to particpate, then I agree with you and I would go one step futher and say that person charged cannot particpate in the show with any of his/her horses..

 

[Shortpig]

at least glueing [sp] isn't as bad as some people who actually go to the trouble of having each mane strand sewn in...poor minis.

Ok that just made me sick to my stomach. Please tell me you haven't seen that done. I can't even stand to watch when my horses get their shots.

People disgust me!

 

[~Lisa~]

Lea, it was already proven that if protested the person does not have to agree to do anything and nothing would happen to that person who was protested. So why would people bother? And as far as "trainer & trainer/director" documenting measurements that is so wrong in many ways!!!

I am guessing this is going back to something that happened at Congress and let me say the rumors going around about what happened are not exactly accurate.

That said Lea I think those are wonderful ideas that could really help things out. Love the fact that rather then just complain you are being very pro active and trying to come up with solutions to help bring some type of consistency and fairness.

 

[Mominis]

What happens if a horse sizes out, should they go with the new measurement procedures? I assume they'd pull the papers and that would be that, am I right? If so, what happens to those poor horses that would then be unregistered? It scares me that so many horses could end up with no 'worth' to their show homes and what the fate of those horses may be.

 

[muffntuf]

There was a suggestion when this all came up over the summer of doing a random sample or just measuring twice, once with the standard now and once at the withers, so that we could see how many potential horses would measure out if the heights were not raised.

I take it this did not happen, per the discussion.

I think before anyone gets a wrinkle in their pants - we need to step back and look at what the potential damage is if the proposed height rules were to go into effect, regardless of grandfathering, without raising the heights. Its the same horse.

Will we loose 25%, 30%, 40% of the registered miniatures and their potential offspring, because there possibly could be that many that measure out?

At Nationals, if it is true 50 measured out and there were really 1500 head of miniatures, that is 3% that measured out and then you would extrapolate to the miniatures already born to the parents who are not registered or showing now, plus the weanlings, yearlings and bred mares for 2011, and then any three year olds that were used for breeding this year of the same parentage, etc.

And the question remains, if they do measure out, what happens to their papers?

How many members will we loose over this?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Honestly we just need to fix our current problem and not worry about measuring at different place. There has to be a better way with how we currently measure.

I don't think this will get past, its happening to quick.

 

[horsefeather]

Just to let folks know, I have ALWAYS turned the stick AWAY from me. Lots of times the owner or a friend of theirs sees the measurement before I do. There is a problem with the stick that no one has mentioned. It will lean. Again, I try to keep it straight and thought I did until Curt was a witness one time and he said the stick was leaning. This will certainly change a measurement. He 'fixed' my stick by putting something on top so I could tell if it was standing straight. The bubble on the stick as it is now will not let you know if the stick is leaning. The only problem with that is I had to take it off to measure shetlands

Now for those who are going to say, 'the witness should tell you if the stick is leaning' sounds very logical. However, more than 1/2 of the horses I usually measure will not stand still, so we are trying to get the horse to stand and the witness is helping by telling me if the horse is standing square, plus doing some paperwork (something I have to have to send in to AMHR, I'll explain later if anyone cares)so you can see that the witness can only do so much. I still like the video idea. I wish the AMHR would put something on the bottom of the stick so it can't tilt or make them a little longer and put a level on top.

I have no magic ideas on how to 'fix' this measuring situation that always goes on and on, except one. Well two, really. Train your horse to stand still and stop cheating and be honest. If your horse is too tall, change it to the next class. Oh yes, one more. Stop showing horses that are so, so close that if they are cold, or nervous, etc. they won't measure where YOU want them to. We wanted to purchase a really nice show horse once, but she was too close to 38" so we didn't take the chance.

Pam

 

[gvpalominominis]

There was a suggestion when this all came up over the summer of doing a random sample or just measuring twice, once with the standard now and once at the withers, so that we could see how many potential horses would measure out if the heights were not raised.

I take it this did not happen, per the discussion.

I think before anyone gets a wrinkle in their pants - we need to step back and look at what the potential damage is if the proposed height rules were to go into effect, regardless of grandfathering, without raising the heights. Its the same horse.

Will we loose 25%, 30%, 40% of the registered miniatures and their potential offspring, because there possibly could be that many that measure out?

At Nationals, if it is true 50 measured out and there were really 1500 head of miniatures, that is 3% that measured out and then you would extrapolate to the miniatures already born to the parents who are not registered or showing now, plus the weanlings, yearlings and bred mares for 2011, and then any three year olds that were used for breeding this year of the same parentage, etc.

And the question remains, if they do measure out, what happens to their papers?

How many members will we loose over this?

That's what I'm talking about = ) Loss revenues to all... including AMHR. Both HOW and WHERE does need to be clarified and adhered to... but there will always be variables.

I posted once before that a few years back they did do the thing regarding measuring twice... only it was an AMHA shows. I ran across the data from one of our shows a while back... I'll see if I can find it again. But measure your own. Some its only a minimal difference but those with high withers can make a big difference.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Re the blank stick...if you were to use an ultra violet written stick you could view the actual height, on the stick used, by using a simple light, thus eradicating the need to transfer the height from one stick to another, which could be either misused or unintentionally incorrectly transferred.

With reference to the horses not standing still...well, either they do or they do not get measured. That is not rocket science. If they cannot be measured they cannot show. End of story.

They would very quickly teach their horses to stand, methinks.

 

[OhHorsePee]

I am guessing this is going back to something that happened at Congress and let me say the rumors going around about what happened are not exactly accurate.

That said Lea I think those are wonderful ideas that could really help things out. Love the fact that rather then just complain you are being very pro active and trying to come up with solutions to help bring some type of consistency and fairness.

Lisa, Lea said no one protested. That is why I said that it may have to do with there not being a follow through. Neither of us were at Congress so neither of us know what really happened. You spoke with whomever you did and think it did not. I spoke to whom I did and believe it did.

hey just thought they were helping out(as they did last year)as we had a big line of horses and all three stewards were measuring.

Lea, after reading the above in your post one can only believe you are talking about this year.

 

[Devon]

Personally I find it somewhat wrong to change the measuring spot that drastically. Say goodbye to etleast 25% of our registry horse wise, as anything thats is 36" and up will have a really good chance at measuring out... / What do we do with them? I'm surely not breeding them if I can't sell or show them

If you think this isnt going to effect you negatively then you must breed mostly A sized horses and feel that way too many push 38". I just don't get it??? Why withers? there will still be issues horses will still be tall people will still argue the spot your measuring on people will still stretch their horses ; you'll just be eliminating our currently tall horses and making new "tall" horses .. Really let's just find a way to fix it the way it is the standard we bred our horses to be measured under.

 

[Marty]

In our line of business we sometimes use a laser measureing tool. I've used it a couple of times to get a measurement on a couple of my horses. You pretty much aim and shoot and it locks in the measurement a split second. There are some that have very tiny microchips in them where they take a picture at the same time. This is not it exactly, but would give you some idea of other tools to measure with.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lpt/yardstick.htm

 

[JWC sr.]

If you think that the glued on hair is extreme, think about having hair inserted into the mane from the tail hair, follicles and all. Further it will grow so it is a one time deal. LOL It happens, people that are going to cheat will go to extremes to achieve the ends they are looking for. The technology is out there and is used in other animals on a fairly regular basis. Not really funny, but pretty durn stupid if you ask me. They take this showing stuff a lot more serious than I do anyway!

As far as the number of horses that measured out, i was told that there were 15 that did not make the cut. Further I watched quite a bit of the measuring for personal information's sale and did not see anything really out of the ordinary.

With that said, I still think a proposal to measure to the highest point of the the withers would help a lot, but it will not completely correct all the problems that are inherent to having people do measuring. They are after all just human and mistakes do and will happen.

 

[Norlea]

OK, as a steward, I can see that I have made at least one drastic mistake. While I will not let a horse stretch, I have let handlers set their front feet apart. I HONESTLY did not know that was illegal! Anyone reading this that go to shows I'll be stewarding at next year, take notice. I won't let anyone do that again. And, I apologize for allowing it. As for measuring the last hair of the mane, I don't think I know anyone (except perhaps the owner) that can get the 'exact' same measurement 3 times in a row (especially when the horse is moving around). (note to exhibitors, if your horse will stand still, it's MUCH easier to get a fair measurement). Now, I'm not talking about an inch, but it's not hard to be 1/2 in. different. Also, there are some driving horses that DO rub some mane out. I take that into consideration. Perhaps I shouldn't, but you can plainly see where the hair is missing and I will measure accordingly. It's usually not over 1/4 of an inch, but sometimes it does change the class the horse will go in. I drive a lot and realize this happens. Personally, I don't know how to stop it.

Also, at the shows where I steward, I put the pictures up on the wall or on the table of how the horse is to stand. It's the same for everybody. I have had people that are showing a shetland that's under 38" tell me they just can't stand that way. If they are showing that horse as a mini, that horse MUST stand like all the others, square. I try to be carefull about the front legs being under the horse and have told quite a few when I notice it that they need to bring their legs forward. Now, I really like being a steward. Most folks are friendly and I like helping anyone with questions or whatever, but let me tell youall something, I certainly don't do it for the money!! If you took what I make a day and divide it into the hours I spend at the show and after, doing paperwork, well, most people wouldn't work for that amount.

My biggest problem is that stewards do not measure the same. It's not fair for the exhibitors! I wish that the minis had started measuring at the withers, but again, as someone mentioned, I have had horses where their mane ended on top of the withers which really makes it taller than it is. I measured a horse once that I would have bet $100 it wouldn't measure in. Well, I would have lost my $100. Because of the conformation, this much taller horse actually measured in under 38" and since we ARE a height measurement registry, I had no choice but to let this horse show.

I know there are problems with mesuring, but I just don't know how to fix them. I DO however, like the idea of video taping all measuring at ALL shows! Personally, I think that would help some. OK, sorry I went on and on, but I kinda wanted to let you guys know that most of us stewards do try hard to be honest.

Pam

I find that interesting Pam, that some pony people feel that thier pony can not stand square, I do not dispute what your saying as many times I have witness ponies out behind themselfs and being measured. I decided to look up in the rule book what it states for measuring ponies. Miniature or Shetland all are to stand square while being measured!!!

Part 6 – Position of Animal

The animal must be standing squarely on all four feet and

should not be permitted to “stretch”. The front legs should

be on a vertical line directly under the shoulder. The back

of the hocks should be in a vertical line with the animal’s

buttocks. The horse/pony’s head must be held low enough

to reveal the highest point of the withers and no lower. The

animal must be free of blanket, hood, neck wrap and tail

set to verify the description on the registration paper to the

animal being measured. The handler must not interfere

with the animal in any way that will prevent it from

standing in this position.

Part 7 – Method of Measurement

A. Pony

With the animal in the aforementioned position,

measure the vertical distance from the highest point of

the withers to the measuring surface. The cross-piece,

arm or bar of the measuring device must be placed

over the highest point of the withers and no

measurement taken at any other part of the animal’s

body will count. The crosspiece, arm or bar must have

firm contact with the animal but no additional pressure

must be applied. Heel measurements are required on

all Shetlands and American Show Ponies. Height and

Heel measurements are to be recorded to the nearest ¼

inch, unless over the required measurement for the

division.

B. American Show Pony

With the animal in the aforementioned position,

measure the vertical distance from the highest point of

the withers to the measuring surface. The cross-piece,

arm or bar of the measuring device must be placed

over the highest point of the withers and no

measurement taken at any other part of the animal’s

body will count. The crosspiece, arm or bar must have

firm contact with the animal but no additional pressure

must be applied. Any pony entering into ASPR classes

must meet the dual height requirements of a maximum

overall exhibition height at the high point of the

withers to be 48” or less and the height at the highest

point of the withers to the hairline of the coronary

band shall not exceed 46”; i.e., 47” or less overall

height with a one inch heel or 48” overall height with

a 2” heel.

C. Miniature Horse

In measuring a miniature horse, position as above, the

head is to be in a normal position. Measure the vertical

distance from the base of the last hair on the mane to

the measuring surface.

C. Hunter Pony Measurement

1. Animals in competition in any Hunter Pony class

are subject to measurement. Measurements must be

performed by a steward with the official competition

veterinarian in attendance, both of whom shall sign the

measurement form.

2. An approved measurement stick is a straight, stiff,

unbendable stick that is equipped with a plumb bob or

spirit level to make sure the standard is perpendicular

to the ground and that the cross-piece or arm is

parallel with the ground surface, and must be shod

with metal.

3. The measurement surface must be level and under

no circumstances should animals be measured on dirt

or gravel. A level concrete slab or other paved surface

is required.

4. All Regular Competitions having Hunter Pony

classes are responsible for providing an approved

Measurement stick and a suitable surface for

measurement

5. The animal must stand squarely on all four feet in

such a position that the front legs are vertical to the

ground and the back of the hocks are in a vertical line

with the point of the animal’s quarters. The poll must

be in the same horizontal plane as the withers and no

lower and the head should be in a normal position. A

maximum of two handlers may present the animal for

measurement and they must not interfere with the

animal in any way that will prevent it from standing in

this position nor may they have any direct physical

contact with the animal that could influence the

measurement, except that a handler may cover the

animal’s eyes.