Miniature horse/Shetland Poll

[ruffian]

This is just a grouping of questions that I've seen floating around the forum and decided to put in one place.

 

[txminipinto]

Your last question is IMO invalid. AMHR is a height registry. ASPC is a breed registry. That would be like saying do you think a quarter horse should be able to register with the arabian association. A Shetland can be a mini if it meets the height restrictions; a mini can not be a shetland without shetland parents.

 

[~Lisa~]

Carin first let me say I do agree and know that you can not hardship into ASPC so the only way to answer that question is no.

It is a bit ironic though isnt it?

Given that ASPC is not a pure blood breed meaning there is plenty of up close Hackney in ASPC it is sort of interesting that AMHR which is also not a pure blood breed but according to everyone (and I do not disagree) is pretty much Shetland anyway that they can not enter ASPC..

Maybe ASPC should open up a division for those whose papers show they are say 50 percent or 75 percent Shetland. We have a division like that already for the Hackney pony-

It might be one way to end the whole ASPC/R "arguement" period. Not to mention increase revenue for the registry as a whole

While I am saying this jokingly it is kinda food for thought

 

[RockRiverTiff]

Can you add N/A to some of the questions? Since I don't own Shetlands, I don't have an opinion on some of the Shetland issues, but I can't chime in on the issues that do concern me without voting on everything.

 

[Minimor]

For the question regarding would I hardship ASPC into AMHR if it made the ASPC papers void--I voted no, but want to expand on that. I voted no because it's unlikely that I will hardship any ASPC horse into AMHR even with the ASPC papers being retained. We've talked about this here different time, whether or not we would AMHR register one of our ponies if he/she were to stay small enough. We are inclined to think we would not bother--a mare or gelding would cost another $260 and for what purpose? Would I be likely to want to show that animal in AMHR? Probably not--I prefer to show ponies, just because the pony way of showing is more fun than the Mini way of showing....I love the rail work. (Hmmm. Now there is a rule change proposal to make next year....show AMHR on the rail, same as the ponies do, with specific judging emphasis placed on MOVEMENT.) So, even if the question was are you likely to hardship ASPC into AMHR to make the horse double registered, my answer would be the same--NO.

As for the question about ASPC/AMHR papers making a Shetland more valuable--do I answer that from the popular point of view, or from my personal point of view? If I answered from the popular point of view I would have said yes--because for the most part I do see prices being better on ASPC/AMHR than on ASPC or AMHR alone and these days the ASPC/AMHR horses seem to sell a little more quickly/easily than those that are ASPC or AMHR alone. I know some people believe that ASPC-only ponies aren't worth much unless they are small enough to hardship into AMHR, and then if the pony is small enough to be AMHR you won't be able to get one for a cheap price. Actually I know of quite a number of ASPC ponies that sold very reasonably in spite of the fact that they are almost all small enough to hardship into AMHR. You aren't necessarily going to see these ponies advertised on the saleboards, but if you know where to look, they are there. However, I'm getting sidetracked!

I chose to answer this question from my personal point of view, and that answer was no. For me, dual registration doesn't necessarily make a pony more valuable. Offered two good quality ponies at the same price, one being AMHR sized and the other being taller, I'm very likely to pick the taller one every time, regardless if the small one has AMHR papers or if it is merely eligible for hardshipping. I've seen so many people pay an inflated price for double registered simply because the animal does have that second set of papers. I don't judge worth based on papers. Therefore I have to say that a 2nd set of papers does not make any animal more valuable--at least it shouldn't! Quality is what should make an animal more valuable. I know that likely isn't the way you wanted the question answered, but it is the way I answered the question anyway!

 

[susanne]

I've stayed out of this debate on the other threads, but my opinion is, at least for now, AMHR is a HEIGHT REGISTRY. It is not (yet, at least) a breed.

A Shetland (or any other horse) measuring under 38 inches is every bit as much a miniature horse as those supposedly "straight" minis. The "straight" minis are almost certainly of predominantly Shetland breeding -- just without the papers.

Yet this debate goes on...

 

[midnight star stables]

"Do you think registering qualified ASPC ponies into AMHR increases their value?"

Of course. I think adding ANY papers add to value of an animal!

If two horses were equal in all other aspects, but one was AMHR and the other was AMHR/AMHA/ASPC/CPS/PtHA... Which one would I buy? One offers me many more options if I want to show. One offers more family opportunity. So as I say Yes, papers add value!

I would never buy an unregistered horse, because I like to show. It doesn't mean my registered stock is any better. But it is better for me.

I also agree with Carin. Shetlands are a breed. Minis are not. Period.

 

[Sandee]

I agree with a couple of previous posters. On would I register an ASPC horse AMHR if he lost his ASPC papers? Well, if it HAS to be in one registery or the other then I want the horse in the one where he fits best. If the ASPC horse is doing well in Shetland then I'd leave him but if he's not and he "fits" into the AMHR description he should be allowed to come over and show there.

As to increasing value. Well, DUH! Isn't that why most of us have double or triple registerd horses already (AMHA/AMHR/PtHA)?

And I too wouldn't buy a horse that ISN'T registered because I am only interested in showing.

 

[kaykay]

I didnt vote in the poll as the questions just are not correct so no matter what the results will be skewed.

 

[ruffian]

I didnt vote in the poll as the questions just are not correct so no matter what the results will be skewed.

It's a poll, not a scientific analysis. What is not correct??

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Lisa has come up with a good point, kind of like the part fabellas do. However, no I would not want AMHR to beable to hardship into ASPC, there is absoutely no point to it and ASPC is a breed.

I wasn't sure what to answer on some. Especially the one about pulling shetlands papers in order to register in AMHR. It may cut down alot of hardshipping of ponies but yet I don't think its fair for them to do it. I answered yes only reason I said yes was my pony would be more competitive showing against his/her height range, not against the taller shetlands. But still I would defintelly not be happy to toss away the shetland papers especially since ASPC is a breed registry.

 

[kaykay]

Ruffian

Its been stated over and over you cannot hardship an AMHR horse ASPC. So why even make that a poll question? It simply could never happen.

And why would any reasonable person throw out ASPC papers to register AMHR? Just ridiculous. When I put pinto papers on my horses they dont ask me to throw out the AMHR or ASPC papers. Why is there no option for making AMHA papers void if you hardship?

Should an ASPC hardshipped horse be DNA'd. Again its not possible so not a real question.

I could go on and on but its such an obviously a biased poll and so many of the questions dont make sense.

Now there is a thread thinking that AMHR is closed to AMHA hard shipping ughh. Someday that may happen but that day is not here yet.

 

[The Simple Life Farm]

Ruffian

Its been stated over and over you cannot hardship an AMHR horse ASPC. So why even make that a poll question? It simply could never happen.

And why would any reasonable person throw out ASPC papers to register AMHR? Just ridiculous. When I put pinto papers on my horses they dont ask me to throw out the AMHR or ASPC papers. Why is there no option for making AMHA papers void if you hardship?

Should an ASPC hardshipped horse be DNA'd. Again its not possible so not a real question.

I could go on and on but its such an obviously a biased poll and so many of the questions dont make sense.

Now there is a thread thinking that AMHR is closed to AMHA hard shipping ughh. Someday that may happen but that day is not here yet.

Agreed

 

[stormy]

The two questions I miss seeing ont he poll are:

Do we as members of AMHR want the Shetland type as the future standard for our breed?

and

Who would prefer that shetlands add additional height divisions to ASPC to form a Miniature Shetland division, giving smaller shetlands a competitive chance within their own registry and increasing numbers at congress and stop the flood into AMHR?

And a third question: should hardshipping be continued but with higher fees and more stringent inspection processes?

 

[alphahorses]

"ASPC ponies, but their ASPC papers are then null and void"

Oh yeah - THAT makes sense. Get rid of BREED papers for HEIGHT papers?

2 of the options on one question are the same. One says "ANY" horse can be hardshipped.. another option says "AMHA, ASPC, and ANY" ... "ANY" covers AMHA and ASPC

This question makes no sense:

"Should AMHR horses be able to be hardshipped into ASPC". ASPC is a breed based on pedigree. Unless you can somehow proove that all of the ancestors were shetlands, you can't hardship into a breed.

I agree with whoever said this is a biased poll. Most of the questions and/or possible answers don't even make sense. Probably should understand more about ASPC breed and rules before making up these questions.

 

[georgiegirl]

If I had wanted shetland ponies, that is what I would have purchased.

I like the miniature horses the way they are. I personally would not purchase a double registered miniature/pony.

JMHO and it probably would not agree with some people.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Kay I am just curious why can't a shetland be DNA'd?

 

[Songcatcher]

This question makes no sense:

"Should AMHR horses be able to be hardshipped into ASPC". ASPC is a breed based on pedigree. Unless you can somehow proove that all of the ancestors were shetlands, you can't hardship into a breed.

I fully understand what you are saying, and agree, but it has happened in the past. Shetland has allowed Hackney in as well as others. If it has happened before, why not again?

I am not saying I want that, just that rules are subject to change, IF YOU GO THROUGH THE PROPER PROCEDURES. Therefore, I think it is a valid question. However, if voting on it, I would personally vote against it.

 

[alphahorses]

I fully understand what you are saying, and agree, but it has happened in the past. Shetland has allowed Hackney in as well as others. If it has happened before, why not again?

I am not saying I want that, just that rules are subject to change, IF YOU GO THROUGH THE PROPER PROCEDURES. Therefore, I think it is a valid question. However, if voting on it, I would personally vote against it.

Shetlands with hackney bloodlines were allowed only because a long time ago, people were passing non-shetlands off as shetlands. The registry opened itself to ponies that were part-hackney for a time (registered as "B"or modern shetlands and in some ways like Appendix QHs) I assume this was to level the playing field for all breeders in the modern division. If Lewella is on, she could tell you much more about the history, but I don't want to hijack this thread with it. ASPC later closed its books. IMO, they should have initially handled these like Arabians or other pedigree-based breeds do and registered them as "half-breds", not as full shetlands. But that is water under the bridge now and a whole different discussion. But you "hardship" into a height or maybe a color registry, not to a breed registry, and the current rules do not allow registry if you can't proove ASPC parantage. That is what I was referring to. If a horse can proove ASPC/shetland parentage, I personally would have no problem with it.

 

[ruffian]

Ruffian

Its been stated over and over you cannot hardship an AMHR horse ASPC. So why even make that a poll question? It simply could never happen.

Many people stated that great miniature horses such as Gold Melody Boy, Buckeroo, Rowdy are all shetlands. So If I had a miniature that is 50% GMB and 50% Rowdy, why couldn't he be hardshipped. Apparently it's already a shetland.

And why would any reasonable person throw out ASPC papers to register AMHR? Just ridiculous. When I put pinto papers on my horses they dont ask me to throw out the AMHR or ASPC papers. Why is there no option for making AMHA papers void if you hardship?

The equines originally used to create AMHA and AMHR had their papers thrown out to become miniature horses. Even if an AMHR horse is hardshipped into AMHA (When that was possible) had parents listed as "UNKNOWN"

Should an ASPC hardshipped horse be DNA'd. Again its not possible so not a real question.

This should have been just ASPC. Should ASPC ponies be DNA tested to prove parentage.

I could go on and on but its such an obviously a biased poll and so many of the questions dont make sense.

Geez - Thanks for calling me Biased, obviously. Many of the questions DO make sense to a lot of other folks. Maybe it's a little bias on both sides?