Minis and Queen Victoria

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mgtman

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I was surfing on the web and came across this quiz on miniature horses. One of the questions and the answer they said was correct follows. "Where did miniature horses originate from? Answer : One accepted theory of the origins of the Miniature Horse is they were developed to pull Queen Victoria's carriage. Chunky coal mine ponies were selectively bred by Queen Victoria's grooms to become the beautiful refined miniature horses of today." Anyone ever heard this before? The quiz says it was developed by a miniture horse breeder. This is the link to the quiz site. Miniature Horse Quiz
 
i always heard it was from an Irish man,that was getting water in the Argentina desert and that a tiny horse came out of a cave,he brought it home and bred it to a freak thoroughbred, and you called the man falabella. I'm probably talking guff but it sounds good doesn't it lol :bgrin
 
These are great stories! Wish we knew/could hear more. Has anyone else heard stories of the miniature's origin?

Charlotte
 
Oh Deary, Deary me!!

In the (adopted ) land of the Shetland Pony, why on earth would Queen Victoria have Miniature horses to pull a carriage??

Anyhoo, I think someone got their wires crossed a little bit there.

The "mine ponies" so often dragged out in these theories- in all countries concerned, are Shetland Ponies, nothing more, nothing less.

Original, real, native, Shetland Ponies.

Miniature Horses, all breeds, all types, from all countries, are bred from Shetland Ponies.

Falabellas are bred form Shetland Ponies.

There is NO way that you would ever be able to breed down any breed of horse without using the only breed of equine to be this small, ie The Shetland Pony.

I am sorry if I sound a bit lunatic about this but, honestly, I did think I had heard it all!!!

Patrick Newell was the first "Falabella" breeder- he was, in fact Irish.

It was his daughter that married into the Falabella family and the rest is history.
 
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Found this information when researching "pit ponies". Thought you ladies might appreciate the pit ponies more after you read it. "In 1842, the Mines Act prohibited women from hauling coal in the pits and ponies took over the work." :aktion033: The article also stated that pit ponies were mostly Welsh Cobs, Dale and Shetland Ponies. Bob
 
Since Charlotte likes stories about miniature horse history, this is a reference to King Henry ordering all Miniature Horses Destroyed on the Gray Fox Farm Site.

"Miniature horses have been around for around 500 years. The earliest known "miniatures" came from Europe in the 1500's. Kings and wealthy nobles kept them as pets. The little horses were very popular. Farmers tried to breed them smaller and smaller and would sell the foals to rich families. King Henry VIII feared that farmers would quit raising large horses, so he passed a law against breeding the miniatures, afraid there would not be enough big horses to carry soldiers in heavy armor. The king ordered all horses less than 56 inches to be killed. English farmers loved their small horses and refused to obey the law. Since that time, England has produced more small horses than any other country. In the 1800's, thousands of small horses went to work pulling coal out of mines. These "pit ponies" sometimes spent their entire lives underground." Bob
 
I remember reading from several different sources that it was the Hope sisters that actually had the first miniature horses in england in the 16th century I think. The heavy ones were eventually used in the mines and the finer ones bred even finer for royalty. The Falabellas didnt appear till a couple of centuries later but that was in argentina.....and didnt look shetlandy by all accounts so maybe same gene different country?? Or maybe someone had a mini shetland given to them (argentinian royalty) and it ran away??? If they were ALL bred down from shetlands they would have to use the smallest and finest and cross them with big horse like Lady Fisher did. She covered her arab mare with her falabella to refine etc
 
wow isn't it great for the Irish people to be the cause of the miniature horse lol, its probably the little leprechauns that rode them, like in Darby o gill lol, an Irish man also invented the submarine lol, can you imagine!!!!!!! :bgrin next thing is well be finding pots of gold at end of the rainbow, lol
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: whatevers true i love the fables that come with the truth........................dont you????
 
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The Hope sisters bred SHETLAND Ponies.

King Henry VIII ordered all stallions under 13.2hh, not "miniature horses" to be destroyed- it did not work though as there were so many Mountain and Moorland Ponies running wild that the Pony breeds survived.

This is the sort of inaccuracy that gives rise to this nonsense about Miniature Horses.

They most certainly have NOT been bred for five hundred years, although the odd Shetland that looked like a Miniature Horse would undoubtedly have surfaced now and again, as this is what gave rise to the Miniature Horse in the first place.

The horses used in open caste Mines were sometimes Welsh Cobs and Cob crosses- also the Sec C cob was used in some of the higher ceilinged mines- the ones that were not so far down.

The Shetland Pony was the only beastie used underground in the deep pits- here at least and in Europe.

I do know in America, Sable Island Ponies and, I would presume but do not know for sure, Chincoteague Ponies were used in mines- I would think basically what was easiest to get was used.

I also know for a fact (we were researching a book at the time) that boatloads of Shetlands were exported to America in the late 1800's, and on into the new Century.

As I have said, wearily, many, many times, Miniature Horse were bred, by Humans, to look pretty, from Shetland Ponies, and have not really existed until the 20th Century.

If they had existed in the Royal Courts there would have been pictures of them- there are many, many pictures of Royal and well to do families, and their children were well documented, too.

There are human dwarfs in lots of these pictures, monkeys, dogs, tiny little lap dogs, irish wolfhounds etc, etc.

There are NO "Miniature Horses".

There are not even any dwarf horses.

Since everything else is well documented, I take their absence to mean they were not there, they did not exist.

Queen Victoria had a team of Cream Ponies to pull a carriage in which she took the air at Osborne House on the Isle of Wight, they were subsequently bred and were used in London Zoo- until recently there were some still at Whipsnade Zoo- but I do not knew if they still have any.

They were about 12.00hh- small for the Victorian age, so also beware of use of the word "miniature" in Historical references- and were all Cream with pale eyes- similar to American Creams.

They were predominantly Welsh with, as far as we could find out, some Dartmoor blood.

They were NOT Miniature Horses!!
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By the time Lady Fisher was breeding, if she had done this cross (Arab X Falabella) she would have registered it, as I did, as a part bred Arab.

Lady Fisher said she did a lot of things - like owning Falabellas- that were not actually , how shall I put this??- provable.

Falabellas were bred form Shetland mares exported, for the better part, from Shetland itself, to Argentina for that purpose.

I do think the story about finding a spotted stallion in a Gaucho camp may well be true as all "legends" have to have some grounding in truth.

The Falabella Family are undoubtedly the first people to have intentionally bred to get a Miniature Horse, and obviously, since the first breeding stock, stock has been bought in and animals upgraded, all the time.

Although it started out as a hobby, it was still done seriously from the start .
 
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These two pictures are from a very old book and were publiched in a magazine here in Australia.

I have read that a number of Registered(?) Shetland Stallions (I think is was 5?) were exported to Patrick Newell from either the Shetland Isles themselves or from England, but certainly I believe that many shetlands were exported to America and elsewhere to the point that the breed was in danger.
 
It was mares that were exported to Patrick Newell form the Shetland Islands- we could actually document the five that you heard of- it was also stated but not documented that a lot more were sent out, but obviously a lot of selective breeding went on, once they got there.

I really do not think we need to look beyond the Shetland and the American "Shetland" as the breed founded by it became when introduced to to the Americas.

The American Shetland is a cross breed pony with a lot of Hackney blood in it- and also Welsh I believe.

Although a lot of the smaller ones were also the animals most like their founding breed, I can see no reason why this breed alone cannot have given birth to the Miniature Horse as we know it.

I have tried breeding down form larger horses and, for the most part, can assure you it does not work.

Also, of course, by the time you get down to the size for which you are aiming, the animal bears no resemblance to the larger horse from which is was bred.

We have a very beautiful, totally man made, breed.

I think we should be justly proud of this achievement and put to rest all the fictional nonsense once and for all.
 
I just always get a good giggle from all this. I still think its so funny that people will proclaim on their websites that there is NO SHETLAND BLOOD in their horses and then go on to exclaim that their pedigrees include Buckeroo. Since Buckeroo is from the Gold Melody Bloodline and GMB was a REGISTERED SHETLAND how can they say that?? LOL. Never ceases to amaze me
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Jane you will probably never get people to admit that miniature horses were bred down from Shetland ponies. Its just not nearly as good of a story :bgrin
 
:lol: HAHAHAHAHAA I COULDNT AGREE MORE BARNBUM LOL :bgrin I THINK ITS SO FUNNY WHEN OUR BREEDERS TELL US THAT THERES NO SHETLAND BLOOD IN THERE MINIATURES AS WELL, MAYBE THEY CAME OVER TO AMERICA BY SUBMARINE DRIVEN BY LEPRECHAUNS, AND THEY HID IN A CAVE LOOKING FOR A POT OF GOLD THAT NEWELL BROUGHT OVER FROM IRELAND, ITS CERTAINLY GIVEN ME A GIGGLE :bgrin
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wow isn't it great for the Irish people to be the cause of the miniature horse lol, its probably the little leprechauns that rode them, like in Darby o gill lol, an Irish man also invented the submarine lol, can you imagine!!!!!!! :bgrin next thing is well be finding pots of gold at end of the rainbow, lol
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: whatevers true i love the fables that come with the truth........................dont you????
Speaking for myself alone, No, I don't love the fables. I have not personally done a great deal of research on the history, but, I know Jane has. I think the truth is important. If we want to improve, we need to know the truth. We cannot improve if we believe and perpetuate the fables. Fun??? maybe, but of no purpose in improving the breed.
 
The mini in NZ as a formal breed is very young, it has only been around as a registry since 1989,

I can tell you for a fact the there is ALOT of welsh blood in NZ miniature horses. Our original broodmare was 37.5" and documented welshie. She has offspring ranging from 33" to 38". Much of the foundation stock before the importeds started coming into NZ were small welsh or caspian ponys, infact one of the Early farms here were orginially breeders of fantasic welsh ponys. NZ's most successful horse at our NZMHA Nationals is half welsh he won 4 National Supreme Champions in a Row (99,00,01,02) under the likes of Wayne Hipsley, Jim Havelhust, Cindy Weight-Carter, Christy Woods, and Sami Schering, had a couple of years off and then this year won the National Supreme at NMHANZ Nationals this year under Mike McCabe he is 38"

Our original Broodmare

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Her National Grand Champion Son

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5 x National Supreme Champion - Half welsh

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All these horses are owned by Meg and all have documented welsh parentage.

Each country will have their own story as to how the mini evolved...
 
wow isn't it great for the Irish people to be the cause of the miniature horse lol, its probably the little leprechauns that rode them, like in Darby o gill lol, an Irish man also invented the submarine lol, can you imagine!!!!!!! :bgrin next thing is well be finding pots of gold at end of the rainbow, lol
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: whatevers true i love the fables that come with the truth........................dont you????
Speaking for myself alone, No, I don't love the fables. I have not personally done a great deal of research on the history, but, I know Jane has. I think the truth is important. If we want to improve, we need to know the truth. We cannot improve if we believe and perpetuate the fables. Fun??? maybe, but of no purpose in improving the breed.
WOW...... not everyone has to love the fables :no:i just thought its a bit of crack!!
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. and i havent researched the history of the miniature but as the poster of this thread wasnt havent much comeback i thought id bump it up with a fable... i dont think theres any call to be so serious,after all the sadness on here, i also think the truth is important,im sure wed all love to know everything like some people
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maybe ill not be as witty the next time i didnt realise i was offending anyone
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wow isn't it great for the Irish people to be the cause of the miniature horse lol, its probably the little leprechauns that rode them, like in Darby o gill lol, an Irish man also invented the submarine lol, can you imagine!!!!!!! :bgrin next thing is well be finding pots of gold at end of the rainbow, lol
default_yes.gif
: whatevers true i love the fables that come with the truth........................dont you????
Speaking for myself alone, No, I don't love the fables. I have not personally done a great deal of research on the history, but, I know Jane has. I think the truth is important. If we want to improve, we need to know the truth. We cannot improve if we believe and perpetuate the fables. Fun??? maybe, but of no purpose in improving the breed.
WOW...... not everyone has to love the fables :no:i just thought its a bit of crack!!
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. and i havent researched the history of the miniature but as the poster of this thread wasnt havent much comeback i thought id bump it up with a fable... i dont think theres any call to be so serious,after all the sadness on here, i also think the truth is important,im sure wed all love to know everything like some people
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maybe ill not be as witty the next time i didnt realise i was offending anyone
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No offense taken. Just stating my opinion like others. I am a history teacher and discuss many fables in class, and they can be fun, but need to be exposed as fables and not promoted as truth. No offense taken and none intended.
 
I can tell you for a fact the there is ALOT of welsh blood in NZ miniature horses.
I think that is true here in North America as well... For all the talk about "Arabian heads, and refinement" in our minis...I think it much more likely to be "section A, Welsh heads, and refinement" that we are seeing. I know that there is a lot of hackney in "our" shetlands, and thay are a very refined breed on their own...but in my opinion...the hackney certainly isn't the breed responsible for a dished head...uhuh...no way jose...
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Just what I figure...

And yes, I too, love to listen to the fables and stories...everyone likes romantisism. As long as we all know it's like watching a movie...even if it's one based on fact...it isn't necessarily going to be a true story.
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Victoria..those horses are beautiful!! And I would think that you and Sue C are closest to the truth.....that the minis of today have a lot of welsh blood in them.....It would have to be the case....I mean, look at a shetland.....small, stocky VERY short legs and thick short neck. To me, that is a shetland. Unless something like a welsh section A was used how could you get the REAL miniature horses (I`m not talking about mini shetlands as I know some on here have them and there is nothing wrong with them at all) with the long legs, long graceful necks and tight barrels??? Its ridiculous to think they came "only" from shetlands.

Also rabbitsfizz, regarding your comment about Lady Fisher......(Q) By the time Lady Fisher was breeding, if she had done this cross (Arab X Falabella) she would have registered it, as I did, as a part bred Arab. (UNQ) Why do you alway slam everything everyone else says as rubbish as if you are the only one who knows???? I actually have a book issued by Lady Fisher from way back when you could go to her Estate, and in it she actually has a picture of the arab and the stallion with the information about their breeding together, and have you actually seen pictures of Menelek?? He was NOT a shetland by any stretch of the imagination. Thats why she paid a fortune for him and her other REGISTERED falabellas. And just because you registered your arab/mini, why does it follow that she would have??

She and all the history of the Hope sisters can be googled if anyone is interested.
 
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I knew Lady Fisher- her antics at the time were well known in the horse world.

She bought Meneluk from a circus, he did tricks- this is what she told me.

(And for the record I always thought he was very nice. I was AMAZED to find they had, miraculously and before DNA testing, proven, irrefutably, that he was a Falabella!!)

If she wrote a book, how do you think she would put it???

Sorry if I know more than you do on certain subjects- I'm sure there must be something that you know more about, until then I shall never fear to speak the truth, nor to speak up when I know something to be incorrect.

If you do not like it the answer is simple....don't read it, don't respond!!
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