Modern Shetland Minis

[Carrie12]

Lewella - that picture says american shetland. Show me a picture of a shetland taken on the shetland isles and then I will believe what you are saying is true. I am open minded, but it is common knowledge and you can tell by looking that the moderns and classics that they do not look like the original forebears. I personally like the moderns and classics of today so I have no problem with it. Just pointing out the irony that the minis that probably carry much more true shetland blood percentage wise do not have shetland papers. But then that's because of the shetland crash and the mini breeders that wanted something "new".

 

[LaVern]

Just thinking here. But as long as you have Foundation Shetland, Classic Shetland, and Modern Shetland at Congress. Why not have Miniature Shetland at Congress. Then the pony judges could judge Congress and the AMHR could get some other types of judges--like Arab -Quarter Horse Morgan or what ever. As we don't have a type, perhaps judges of other breeds would be more fitting.

 

[disneyhorse]

Carie12... how can minis carry "more true Shetland blood" than the registered American shetlands? Are you telling me that mini people imported mass quantities of the "foundation Island type" European Shetland and bred MORE of this blood into the minis than into the American Shetlands???!!?? It just can't work that way.

It all has to do with SELECTIVE BREEDING. Miniatures, in the beginning, were SELECTIVELY BRED for SIZE and NOT for conformation/refinement/extreme type. So yes, even if the Shetlands they were picking were more drafty/old style in type, if they were small they were bred. Now that breeders have a handle on the size aspect of the breed, there is more freedom to be more selective in breeding for the "icing on the cake" where they are seeking out more extreme movement, lightness of bone, and other aspects which will make them appear closer to a full-size horse.

The American Shetland was also selectively bred. They took the most refined of the imported stock, and selectively bred individuals that had an upright neck, open motion, and refined appearance than other individuals.

With both the Miniature Horse and the American Shetland... GOOD breeders look BEYOND mere "solid conformation" and strive for things above and beyond... movement (not just a "pretty" mover but one that can compete Nationally against other talented movers) refinement, presence, upright appearance and carriage. That's how it is. That is why it is competitive. It is HARD to breed, train and show TOP horses. If it was easy, it wouldn't be as prestigious. So stop whining about how "my horse is just as correct, it just isn't a pony" and take a hard look at how your horse is bred, how it is trained, and how it is presented. That is why breeders show their horses at the National level, to see how they stack up with other breeders to are TRULY striving to breed the best and move the breed forward. To stagnate and go backwards MAY not be the answer?

Just my opinion. I sure think the horses presented to National Champion and National Grand/Stakes Champions were ALL absolutely drop-dead-beautiful horses. Congratulations to the breeders who bred them, the trainers who trained them, and the handlers who showed them to the best of their ability. (And to the rest of the horses in the ring... good job, too. The competition is tough!)

Andrea

 

[JWC sr.]

Not much that I can add other than the evolution of the breed be it Miniature's, Quarter Horse's or parakeets is something that will go on and has gone on forever.

Some people will resist it, some will embrace it, whatever it is. Which to me is fine and understandable from all points of view. It also does not make the opinions expressed completely wrong or right on either side. Further the market place and the show ring will eventually produce the clear winner by the horse or type of horse selected by general public and/or owner as the one they want to own and show. It will be interesting to watch over the next however many years I have left on this green earth.

But with that said, to me the most interesting thing about this whole topic is the two pictures that were presented. If ever I saw two more distinctly different looking horses, I do not know when it was. Of course also I also noticed the different things the horses looked like they were being used for. One was pulling around some affluent looking kids and the other two looked like everyday working horses. Pretty neat and thanks for posting them.

 

[disneyhorse]

Awww what a wonderful post, JWC Jr., so true. So true.

Andrea

 

[disneyhorse]

I would like to point out, too... to the people "against" the Modern Shetlands (if we are talking TRUE Modern Shetlands as shown in that Shetland division)...

The Modern Shetland is NOT the most popular Shetland in the Registry. The Classic Shetland by far outnumbers the Modern I would guess, in both overall population numbers as well as the numbers shown.

So I doubt very much that a "hackney type" miniature horse will sweep the nation and create the demise of a mini that is more classic in type. As Exspony suggested, perhaps they will dominate the Park Harness ring and perhaps Liberty and some Pleasure Driving, but most likely will not endure as a halter animal or other areas.

Andrea

 

[bingo]

For me it all comes back to division in our own registry. Nothing more nothing less.

Just when AMHR only registered horses were finally getting the respect they deserve, being noticed for being beautiful horses. Finally bringing in the dollar value they were worth something I might add that took YEARS to come about. Well it is all heading right into the trash and the worst part is by our own.

I can not tell you how many times I have heard oh that is AMHR only don't buy it they are not worth anything you must have a pony to win. Well frankly that is not the truth. The ponies have added a style and look yes but reality is fad is a fad is a fad. This to shall pass and we will move on to something else but how much damage will we have done to the AMHR only horses in the process.

I heard for years how only AMHA/R horses were worth anything and this is just a repeat.

How many years have we set ourselves back after working so hard to dispel myths?

I do not believe ASPC breeders are any more discriminating then Mini breeders. I have seen plenty of nice horses/ponies and plenty of crap out there as well.

It is a great marketing ploy it is working well but are we cutting off our nose to spite our face? IMO yes that is surely what it is becoming.

Not everyone wants a pony and not everyone wants a mini why does it have to be one is so much better then the other? I do not tell people oh do not get an ASPC only pony they are worthless a good pony is a good pony and will bring a decent price period. The same goes for AMHR. I do realize everyone likes to think AMHR/ASPC is the only way to go but trust me they are being bred by everyone and can be found everywhere now compared to even 2 years ago.

Pretty soon the same problem will arise and everyone will look for something else to do to get the edge, market something new and phase out all the horses being bred for double registered papers alone.

I am not against ponies in the AMHR ring they have the right to be there with our rules. If you feel strongly about it write a rule proposal for 2010 to end hardshipping for AMHA and ASPC other then that it is going to go on but lets not put the AMHR horses back into the dark ages in the process.

 

[Carrie12]

Disneyhorse - Research it a little further and you will see that it was a common practice and common knowledge that breeders of shetlands were consistently outcrossing with hackneys and whatever else, 40, 50, 60 years ago, and more. And what I am saying is that even though the minis lost their shetland papers because the shetland market crashed and the breeders were trying to promote them as something new and didn't want them associated with shetlands at the time- those are the ancestors of the minis we have today and yes, they have more shetland blood because they were not outcrossed with hackneys and welsh as much so they look more like their originial ancestors both in size and type. But they lost their papers because the breeders of the time didn't want them to be known as shetlands so they collected the smaller of the breed and threw away their shetland papers and promoted them as minis and set a height requirment to make them "different" and more valuable than the taller ones that were steadily getting taller from all the outcrossing. And the ones that were still using shetland papers were busy outcrossing with hackney's and welsh and that is why the modern shetland moves like a hackney, has a head like a hackney and has size larger than the original shetlands, yet they are called shetlands when they are mostly hackney. I don't have a preference either way or think one is more correct than the other.

 

[LaVern]

Bingo, I agree. It is splitting us apart.

Harts says, " The AMHR A and B miniature horse has been the cash cow and if you don't feed and protect her, she will dry up. Then who will we suck off of?"

And I agree. From the office people to the judges to the stewards to the vendors to the trainers to the breeders on and on.

 

[alongman]

I have to throw in my two cents as well. I do show AMHR primarily - some of the animals on my show string are AMHR/ASPC and some are out of my modern miniature stallion. The AMHR is strictly a height breed, as many others have pointed out. It is not based on bloodlines or breed. Just height. Many people have stated that the AMHR has supported the organization and I do agree with this, but I can tell you that EACH of my animals that was ASPC registered that I hardshipped into the AMHR cost me a nice amount as well. I know I paid someones wages that month

As for types, again, there are so many styles of miniature horse out there. When I first started we had the clearly QH style miniature that was being beaten in the ring by the more typey Arab style miniature. I was told, that's the trend. If you want to be competitive, that's what you need to strive for. The breed is evolving - for better or for worse.

As a judge, I do have the right to pick what I feel is the best animal in the ring. I have seen some stunning AMHR/ASPC animals, but on the other hand have seen a multitude of AMHR animals that are equally as stunning. I ALWAYS pick the animal that I feel meets the standards the best. It's my judgement call at that time. I don't believe that adding many more classes will be the answer as THAT will limit the amount of people at the shows - I have the luxury of traveling with client horses who assist with my bills, but even the two-day weekend shows are costly. If we added only the classes that have been mentioned on this posting, then we would be looking at adding roughly 6 more hours of class AT THE LOCAL SHOWS! That means one more day, one more night and FEWER exhibitors who could afford to do the ENTIRE show. Not to mention, Nationals would be extended by several days to accomodate.

Here's my solution to it all. I breed the animals that I like. I have researched my bloodlines, I have found the animals to do what I want. I show my horses - if they win that's fantastic, but in my eyes, I have succeeded despite what ribbon a judge gives me on one particular day. I stood my ground and did what I thought was the best to promote the industry.

 

[racingfan72104]

ok now I have a problem. I recently bought a yearling filly who is out of a nicely bred classic shetland mare who is ASPC registered. The sire is a mini who is very tiny AMHR and yet i have to register my filly as National Show Pony which is a non-breeding registery. I am sorry to say this filly is nice moving and I would love to show her. She currently measure's 32". So here is my question why do I have to go about registering her this way when people are already getting to add shetland blood in the miniatures.

 

[kaykay]

racingfan

American Shetlands are a breed. Keep in mind ASPC is not a height registry like AMHR or AMHA. So to be registered American Shetland both parents have to have ASPC papers for the resulting foal to be registered. The National Show Pony registry was created to encourage taller performance ponies for riding, hunter, jumper etc.

To put shetlands in your herd they have to have both ASPC/AMHR papers.

 

[Minimor]

racingfan, it is because that is the way the rules are written. If your filly does not have shetland papers then she does not qualify for AMHR papers. At one time you could have waited until she is 3 years old and then hardshipped her in, but since AMHR ended hardshipping for any horses that do not have ASPC, AMHA or Falabella papers a horse that is only half AMHR and half ASPC is not eligible.

If your filly's dam is small enough she could be registered AMHR, and then your filly would be eligible for regular registration.

 

[muffntuf]

To be registered ASPC - both parents have to be ASPC. For a double registered ASPC/AMHR both parents have to hold ASPC papers and if one has AMHR papers, then at age 3 you can go through the motions of getting it measured by a steward and approve by a judge and then you can register it as AMHR.

racingfan - I understand where you are coming from. I have a oops breeding this year with a shetland stallion and an AMHR mare. She is not double registered, so I can only register the foal as NSPR. Which is not really the intent of the new division, but its a reality that's coming into play.

 

[ahrobertspony]

Some ways to limit or discourage the more extreme animals ....

1) Judging that doesn't use/place such animals. Poor results in the show ring will discourage such animals in the future.

2) Removing the classes that encourage more extreme animals like fancy turnout, park harness or roadster in hand

3) Complete and total stoppage of demand for small Moderns by many, many, many, many true & die-hard Miniature people. Yes ... more Modern farms today are specifically trying to produce small animals because of the economics. The demand from Miniature people is EXTREMELY high. I never cease to be shocked by the number of calls looking for small Moderns. Modern people aren't pushing an agenda. Rather, they are simply meeting a demand coming specifically from within the AMHR.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Some ways to limit or discourage the more extreme animals ....
2) Removing the classes that encourage more extreme animals like fancy turnout, park harness or roadster in hand

Won't work. Those horses would just go down in Open, which would bump the lower moving horses into Country, which would bump the lower moving Country horses into Western, which would ruin that class for the purpose it was intended......

Here's my solution to it all. I breed the animals that I like. I have researched my bloodlines, I have found the animals to do what I want. I show my horses - if they win that's fantastic, but in my eyes, I have succeeded despite what ribbon a judge gives me on one particular day. I stood my ground and did what I thought was the best to promote the industry.

Go Adam!!!

Lucy

 

[ahrobertspony]

Some ways to limit or discourage the more extreme animals ....
2) Removing the classes that encourage more extreme animals like fancy turnout, park harness or roadster in hand

Won't work. Those horses would just go down in Open, which would bump the lower moving horses into Country, which would bump the lower moving Country horses into Western, which would ruin that class for the purpose it was intended......

I don't disagree.

I was making a point ... also about purpose and intent. Why adopt a specifically Modern class like Roadster in Hand or encourage a class for high-steppers w/ actual carriage & headset like Park Harness ... and then complain when those type of animals show up? Fancy turnout ... while expanded to include Classics & Minis ... wasn't JUST about the turnout. It was a Fine Harness class ... again, action, headset & carriage to go along w/ flowers & yards of material.

 

[bingo]

I was making a point ... also about purpose and intent. Why adopt a specifically Modern class like Roadster in Hand or encourage a class for high-steppers w/ actual carriage & headset like Park Harness ... and then complain when those type of animals show up? .

I do not ever remember being asked if I would like to add this particular class or if I would prefer to add a different class if we had the time and money.

I am sure many mini breeders will agree we were never asked our opinion about adopting a class that is catering to a Modern Pony.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I was making a point ... also about purpose and intent. Why adopt a specifically Modern class like Roadster in Hand or encourage a class for high-steppers w/ actual carriage & headset like Park Harness ... and then complain when those type of animals show up? .

I do not ever remember being asked if I would like to add this particular class or if I would prefer to add a different class if we had the time and money.

I am sure many mini breeders will agree we were never asked our opinion about adopting a class that is catering to a Modern Pony.

I am wanting to know when did AMHR decide to have roadster in-hand at Nationals? The first time I have seen or heard about it was in the National show bill.

 

[Lisa Strass]

I was making a point ... also about purpose and intent. Why adopt a specifically Modern class like Roadster in Hand or encourage a class for high-steppers w/ actual carriage & headset like Park Harness ... and then complain when those type of animals show up? .

I do not ever remember being asked if I would like to add this particular class or if I would prefer to add a different class if we had the time and money.

I am sure many mini breeders will agree we were never asked our opinion about adopting a class that is catering to a Modern Pony.

I am wanting to know when did AMHR decide to have roadster in-hand at Nationals? The first time I have seen or heard about it was in the National show bill.

This was the first year roadster in-hand was offered at AMHR Nationals. Do you know why it was offered? Because it is a FUN class that gets the crowd cheering! Another crowd pleaser that comes to mind is the Chariot class.

Since it is a non-rated class, I seriously doubt a bunch of Modern folks, hardshipped their horses in and drug them to Nationals just for that class. I've actually shown in the in-hand class at Congress and had a blast doing it, but you know what... the outcome of the Congress or National in-hand Roadster classes isn't going to change my breeding program one bit. But I will continue to support the class just for the fun of it.