More thoughts on dwarf Minis.

[Riverrose28]

How do you know you are buying a carrier? My husband spent several thousand dollars on a small stallion, and over 1700 for his mare. The sellers never said anything about any dwarfs in the pedigrees. The stallion had some very good horses in his, I'm not going to say cause don't want to get into trouble, but you just never know until you actually bred one to another. Who is to say that most of our breeding stock doesn't carry this awful gene. We need a test, and we need it now! How many of us are breeding horses that carry this awful gene. I try not to, but come on how do we really know? I show and have had judges make my head big by telling me my horses are well bred, but sometimes I do wonder. when you buy horses from well known breeder with top placing show horses and then produce a dwarf, what is up with that? WE have only had one in 15 years of breeding but it was enough to cause me to ask questions. Do the top breeders hide theirs? Just not disclose this fact? Do these horses born from our breedings not deserve to be loved and cared for? Should we put them down at the moment of birth, and live with the mares sorrow for what we caused? So many questions and so little anwers.

 

[Tremor]

If this mare has also had two more dwarf foals,is she still being bred?

No ma'am! (Yes it is the same mare)

I just want to make it clear that the first foal was conceived out of our ignorance. We saw the breeding in the spring/summer of 2006 but we said before hand, "Oh she's too small. He'll never breed her!" We ended up with a beautiful little appaloosa colt whom we gelded.

The next few years later we didn't have adequate lots. In either lot we'd have a stud and we couldn't put all three studs together. It wasn't possible and we ended up with a HUMUNGOUS stillborn colt. I named him Sammy and buried him. Hardest thing I've ever done.

Now, as for the little demon in my avatar we did try to prevent her breeding. We had the stud and mare separated from each other and a family member ended up letting them out together without my knowing. Of course, I didn't learn this until about 3-4 months after the filly was born.

No, she is not being bred. We sold our stud (he was not gelded but I fought for it for MONTHS. Almost 6 months. Breeding season was coming around the corner and we had an interested buyer. It was either sell him or put my four mares/fillies at risk. I had to think of what was best for my herd.) and gelded both our boys.

 

[Margo_C-T]

Riverrose, I think you did things exactly right! Your filly doesn't look as if she has extreme characteristics; IMO, those would be the ones most likely to be able to survive and have a good quality of life the longest. I commend your heart and compassion.

That said...I KNOW there are folks on here who have, often through great and dedicated effort and often financial committment, managed to provide the best possible life for dwarves in their care; I recognize and deeply admire that, also. The one dwarf born here during my years of breeding had (increasingly) severe leg problems, by a few months of age, could barely get around...but was a deeply endearing little creature...something very often reported by dwarves' caretakers. I had no choice, but the day I had my vet euthanize her was one of the hardest of my life.

Her sire had cost what to me was/still is, a LOT of money--$5 K--but after her birth, I never bred him again, donated both him and the dam to a home for disadvantaged boys/girls that had a horse program, with full disclosure that they had produced a dwarf and should never again be bred(the ranch wasn't breeding, just letting the youngsters learn to care for, handle, show, the horses.)Thankful that this problem was revealed at the beginning of the stallion's breeding career,I also donated the stallion's only other offspring to the same program, again with full disclosure. It was the best I could manage at the time.

Margo

 

[Tremor]

Actually there have been a few known dwarfs, who have measured 26". Being extra tiny, isn't just the only sign of a possible dwarf.

Lizzie

I think you misunderstood me. I was just comparing the heights of the horses. The two under 27'' are dwarves (Type 1 from what we can tell).

Here's the oldest (5 next April) His traits have gotten worse over time:

2010:

2011:

The youngest is pretty iffy. *I* think she's a dwarf but she's finer built and I'm waiting until next May to make my final decision for after I clip her.

2-3 months:

1 year:

If the filly isn't a dwarf then I'll be registering her. There's no reason that I can't show her in halter obstacle and ect. She's not horribly conformed but not breeding quality.

 

[Reble]

How do you know you are buying a carrier? My husband spent several thousand dollars on a small stallion, and over 1700 for his mare. The sellers never said anything about any dwarfs in the pedigrees. The stallion had some very good horses in his, I'm not going to say cause don't want to get into trouble, but you just never know until you actually bred one to another.

You are correct there is no test and no you do not know until the foal is born.

Who is to say that most of our breeding stock doesn't carry this awful gene.

They say we would be surprised that who is a possible carrier

We need a test, and we need it now! How many of us are breeding horses that carry this awful gene. I try not to, but come on how do we really know? I show and have had judges make my head big by telling me my horses are well bred, but sometimes I do wonder. when you buy horses from well known breeder with top placing show horses and then produce a dwarf, what is up with that? WE have only had one in 15 years of breeding but it was enough to cause me to ask questions.

Do the top breeders hide theirs? Just not disclose this fact?

I also believe that some do not say, and will hide it, and do not disclose it.

Do these horses born from our breedings not deserve to be loved and cared for? Should we put them down at the moment of birth, and live with the mares sorrow for what we caused? So many questions and so little anwers.

No I believe they should have a chance for the best life we can do for them.

I am not sure of others but I do believe I would be up front and not breed any two back again if turned out to have a dwarf foal.

I would geld my stallion and also sell mare as pet and explain why she should not be bred.

I hope some day there will be a test like they have for LWO.

 

[Lizzie]

I had mentioned in another post, that I had spoken to UCDavis about it. While they have a test for one type of dwarfism in cattle, there are no tests for any types of dwarfism in horses and no research attempted or considered for the future. Pity.

Lizzie

 

[horsehug]

Lizzie,

John Eberth of Arion Management has been tirelessly working on dwarf research for many many years. If you read all the pages of the Dwarf Forum here on LB where he answered questions in 2007, you can see how much he had studied and learned by that point. At some of the last AMHA annual meetings he also talked about his research and hoped to have his tests available to the public over a year ago. But with any kind of research things can happen to delay it. I am totally confident his tests will eventually be available. Then we will be able to test our minis and know which ones are carriers and which ones are not. It has been estimated by many experienced breeders that 50 to 75% of miniatures are carriers of a dwarf gene. Once we know which ones are and which ones are not, we will know with certainty how we could plan breedings and never again produce a dwarf.

Susan O.

 

[Lizzie]

I have read the Dwarf message board Susan. I don't know if John was thinking of another University who would be/was studying dwarfism, but I know, since I spoke to them just a week or so ago, that UCDavis seems not at all interested. Hopefully, one day they will receive funding for it and one day maybe, we will have a test for it. Actually, since it is known in many breeds, I'm a bit surprised it has been placed on the back burner. Actually, not on the burner at all, so they tell me. Just in cattle and one breed at that.

Lizzie

 

[Lizzie]

I think you misunderstood me. I was just comparing the heights of the horses. The two under 27'' are dwarves (Type 1 from what we can tell).

I really wasn't directing that at you Tremor. Just something that popped into my mind.

I am glad though, that you no longer breed Bow Tie. Six foals for a known dwarf producer, is more than enough. Actually, ever since I met you first on another forum, I (as have many others) always thought BT was herself a dwarf. She certainly has the signs.

Are you still jumping her? I remember she was a great jumper.

Lizzie

 

[Songcatcher]

I have read the Dwarf message board Susan. I don't know if John was thinking of another University who would be/was studying dwarfism, but I know, since I spoke to them just a week or so ago, that UCDavis seems not at all interested. Hopefully, one day they will receive funding for it and one day maybe, we will have a test for it. Actually, since it is known in many breeds, I'm a bit surprised it has been placed on the back burner. Actually, not on the burner at all, so they tell me. Just in cattle and one breed at that.

Lizzie

UCDavis is not the only research facility in the world. I believe John Eberth is working through the University of Kentucky.

 

[LAminiatures]

Riverrose you are the best. Your story brought tears to my eyes. I feel the same way about my little dwarf. The expense can be over whelming but I can never see myself giving up the gift of having a dwarf and treasuring him or her until that day comes. You made my day.

 

[horsehug]

Yes John has done his work through the University of Kentucky for many years and made great progress. It just takes time to get it all in the correct form....... to offer to the public testing that encompasses each type of dwarfism. But when that happens he will be letting us all know, including AMHA and AMHR/ASPC as well as LB.

Susan O.

 

[Tremor]

I really wasn't directing that at you Tremor. Just something that popped into my mind.

I am glad though, that you no longer breed Bow Tie. Six foals for a known dwarf producer, is more than enough. Actually, ever since I met you first on another forum, I (as have many others) always thought BT was herself a dwarf. She certainly has the signs.

Are you still jumping her? I remember she was a great jumper.

Lizzie

Haha, sorry lol.

I agree that six is more than enough. Four was more than enough. (Ended up have two more after her dwarf colt who we didn't know was a dwarf until he was a yearling.)

She does have the signs and from going from her signs I'm thinking that her 2010 gelding son is a carrier as well because of his knees (Very over at the knee while neither parent was) and his slight roach back. Every other foal by this mare (dwarf excluded) had good flat knees like their parents and level backs.

We are still working with her. Not neccesarily on jumping (need a few more jumps) but on manners, desensitizing, lunging, and setting up. She's coming along fantastic.

Here's a picture of her from October:

 

[Lizzie]

UCDavis is not the only research facility in the world. I believe John Eberth is working through the University of Kentucky.

Yes, I did know that John was working with the U of Kentucky. The reason I wrote to UCDavis, was because I knew they had already been researching dwarfism and had at least one test for it. They still offer a test for a form of chondrodysplasia, but I believe it's only for Dexters. Dwarfism is actually known and well documented in many breeds of cattle. By what she told me, they have traced the problem in Dexters anyway, to one bull line. I imagine, that the original bull was born a dwarf and because of his small and interesting size, he was bred to hopefully get more of his small type. And so, as we have seen in Minis, the problem is bred on down the generations. Too bad really, but I do understand that those in the past who have suddenly come up with these very small animals, and with no knowledge of dwarfism, might breed them on.

Interestingly, dwarfism is believed to be found in all species of animls, but doesn't exhibit similarly in all species. I know UCBerkeley has done quite a bit of research in dwarfism in various breeds of dogs.

Lizzie

 

[Lizzie]

Tremor. I know on another forum, you were kind enough to show her pedigree and even though she always looks pregnant, there was a whole lot of talk about her huge tummy. It suddenly struck me, that along with other problems she has which you had listed, her tummy is most probably just another indication of her being a dwarf. Anyway, she's looking good and I know you love her very much.

Lizzie