National Top Ten vs. National Champion

[Jill]

Okay, I see this every once in awhile on websites and wanted to bring it up here. I've already made up my mind on what is the proper "wording" to use, but for those who are open to input or those who may be open to enlightenment:

A National Champion is a National Champion. A horse who took First Place at the Nationals in it's class and maybe went on to a higher honor as a National Grand Champion.

A horse who placed Top 10, Top 5, Top 3... Is just that -- National Top 10, 5 or 3 but NOT a "National Champion". Still a fabulous accomplishment, but not the same as a National Championship.

[SIZE=14pt]Right?[/SIZE]

Hey, if not, no skin off my back as that means I have more National Champions according to some folks than I thought

: I just think there's some room here for some people (perspective buyers) to fooled by a little bit of misleading word play.

 

[user 488]

A National Champion is a National Champion. A horse who took First Place at the Nationals in it's class and maybe went on to a higher honor as a National Grand Champion.

A horse who placed Top 10, Top 5, Top 3... Is just that -- National Top 10, 5 or 3 but NOT a "National Champion". Still a fabulous accomplishment, but not the same as a National Championship.

[SIZE=14pt]Right?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=18pt]RIGHT![/SIZE]

Wool isn't pulled over these eyes!

Another one is NATIONAL CHAMPION........and then they put reserve in little itty bitty letters.

: HOW BOGUS!

I don't get it myself. Be happy with what you won as the next time that big old white gate could be hitting you and your horse in the backside. At that point that Top Ten looked REAL GOOD!

I just think there's some room here for some people (perspective buyers) to fooled by a little bit of misleading word play.

[SIZE=18pt]UH HUH!

: [/SIZE]

Don't think the REAL National Champions take to kindly to this.

 

[Minimor]

Yes, & I've noticed an ad here & there where a few words were dropped from the horse's title, so that the National Champion owned, shown & bred by exhibitor stallion (or mare or gelding, whichever it was) suddenly turned into the National Champion stallion (mare or gelding). To me there's a big difference in the open and the owned/shown/bred by classes and making the one sound like the other is misleading. I've wondered if it was deliberate or just an oversight by the person who prepared the ad or website.

Likewise the National Champion yearling stallion/mare/gelding becomes the National Champion stallion/mare/gelding--again, kind of, but not exactly.

And I've seen Top 3 or Top 5 or even Top 10 horses advertised as National Championship winners. Not quite.

And then there are a few "Nationals winners" advertised--they just forget to mention that these won 3rd or 5th, not 1st.

Maybe I'm too particular about wording?

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

This also happens when people come back from sanctioned shows claiming they won Senior or Junior Stallion/Mare/Gelding Grand Champion and than took over all Grand Champion.

You do NOT have a Grand Champion/Reserve Grand Champion per age division (JR/SR), just a Champion and Reserve Champion. It is those Junior & Senior Champions and Reserve Champions who come back for the title of Grand Champion/Res. Grand Champion.

A Grand Champion is the horse that beats ALL aged horses in its proper division.

A Champion is a horse that beat all others IN that age division.

Senior Champion has beat all those 3 and older.

Junior Champion has beat all those 2 and under.

 

[txminipinto]

I agree. When ever I advertise a particular horse with a title or top ten (or whatever) I make sure it's clear in what division, and I sure don't claim a National GRAND or RESERVE if I don't have one! But the day I do.......You'll hear it from the roof tops! :lol:

And those who have won that NATIONAL GRAND OR RESERVE.....toot those horns because you deserve it.

 

[Jill]

Yep, it sounds like all of us "here" are on the same page

:

One thing that is confusing (or was to me, being more familiar with AMHR) is that in AMHA, you do have a Grand Champion Junior horse, and a Grand Champion Senior horse by name. I think in AMHA the only time junior and senior horses compete against each other is for a supreme (?). BUT, like Sheryl, so often in a report from an AMHR show, we hear Grand Champion Junior Stallion when really, he was Champion Junior Stallion.

I can still remember years ago, I couldn't keep straight really what was what and champion, grand champion, shoot FIRST place, were all mind blowing news and it all could run together in my mind when I was new to having a show horse, however, the things I had in mind when I made this thread are not innocent oversights but deliberate over inflating of the facts.

And also............ while I am busy griping about what people can say -- the one that makes me roll my eyes the most when someone eludes that their horse is National Champion material, or if the horse showed at the Nationals (or Worlds) it would do well. This thread came up a year or so ago and I commented at that time. It's awfully easy to make those kinds of claims when you KNOW you'll never put your horse where your mouth is. Some of the horses that I've heard such claims made about look like nags to me Saying those kinds of things I almost feel is blasphemous at times, and just kind of a slap in the face to those horses (and owners) who've gone out there and done it.

 

[Erica]

To me there's a big difference in the open and the owned/shown/bred by classes and making the one sound like the other is misleading.

This is somewhat off subject of the post........

but in AMHR at least the Owned/Bred/Shown by Exhibitor class is an OPEN class, and you compete against all ages for the sex/height you are showing in (used to be just "for unders and overs", but got so big class size wise they had to split by sexes as well)........trainers can be in there are ARE in there, John Eberth/Arion Mgt; Belinda/Cross County; Laura/ TenL; Jim and Becky/Snowberry and more......... It is not an ammy owned/bred/shown........it's open for anyone, tough class too.

to answer your question Jill I see it as National Champion is winner of the respective class (whatever class that might be), Reserve National Champion got second in the class..........top ten is 3-10 place or you can break it down to top three for 3rd, top five for 4-5 if you want, top ten for 6-10.

National Grand champion - won overall in their sex/height, such as "overall" under stallions ext.......National Reserve Grand.....

 

[Jill]

They way I see it is just as Erica has outlined (yeah... go figure!) :bgrin

 

[HGFarm]

Doesn't AMHA or somebody advertise though, the ones that make 'Top Ten'? At R Nationals the classes are HUGE and the competition really hard. If I placed in the top ten at Nationals, I would be thrilled. That is what they are refering to when they advertise that way- a National Top Ten in halter, for example. He was in the top ten in his class at Nationals. That is the way I look at it. I certainly dont mistake it for that horse being a National Champion because that's not what it says.

Am I making any sense?

:

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I have seen several adds or sites where it says National Champion and the horse truly got a top ten not a champion or res. I agree with everyone else on the wording

and this might just be me but..

well let me use myself as an example.. Raven has a horse who won Res National Champion in a halter class.. she was proud, sounds impressive but truth be told there were 3 only 3 horses in her class so yes it is accurate to say the mare is a Res National Champion however I personally always follow that with out of 3 I would be mortified if someone looked up that record and found there were only 3 in the class and I played it like there wasnt or by not saying anything gave them impression it was in a class wtih the usual 30-40 horses again that might just be me.

Now that same mare has top tenned in halter in all 3 or 4 years ( I forget now) she showed at Nationals but at least those were big classes somehow to me anyway her 10th in ammy that year out of whatever it was 35-45 whatever means more then her res. out of 3 and for Raven who fiugred this out pretty quick the same thing with the 7th she got with Foxy that year .. out of over 20 ( I think not sure on the numbers but close enough) then the res she got with Magic she was like mom i love the platter but... come on there were only 3 horses-

 

[Fred]

I don't mean to hijack your thread Jill but what REALLY irks me is I DO have two National Grand Champions several times over and were requested to demo at Equine Affaire. Mind we were asked to do this and it was for an AMHA club [i basically show only AMHR] but I did it anyway to promote the minis. The expense was totally out of my pocket. My horse was only noted as a national champion BECAUSE it might offend someone from AMHA. Now from what I understand anything that wins in any class at their regionals is a champion? I don't think that is right.

 

[HGFarm]

It would be a champion at Regionals, but only a Regional Champion, not a National Champion. You can have a Western Regional Champion, etc... or a Central Regional Champion- just like you can have a champion from a Sr Stallion class at a local show- it was picked as the champion of that class at that event - it's all on what LEVEL of champion. I would certainly not advertise a Regional champion as a National champion- that would be a big fib! It was proclaimed a Regional champion only.

 

[Becky]

Now from what I understand anything that wins in any class at their regionals is a champion? I don't think that is right.

I disagree with that statement. AMHA's Regional Championship shows are just that. There are Regional Champions, Reserves and Top 10's in every class. There are three of these shows (Eastern, Western and Central) and the competition is quite tough. However, anybody that calls their horse a National Champion (or Reserve), World Champion (or Reserve) or National/World Top 10 should designate what show/class that win(s) was in. JMO. The same for the AMHA Regional Championship shows. Yes, there are some misleading ads out there, but a few questions to the advertiser should resolve any misunderstandings.

After all, a World/National win in any major competition be it AMHA, AMHR, ASPC or anything else is tough to come by and the owner/exhibitor has every right to be proud!

 

[JeanH]

You can always tell when it's an experienced horse show person you are talking with. If you say you were National champion this or that, Top 10 this or that, the first thing out of their mouth is "how many horses in the class?".

Jean

 

[HGFarm]

LOL Jean, you took the words right out of my mouth. If you are advertising a Top Ten, and there was only 8 in the class, well............................. :no:

 

[CLC Stables]

Jill you and I are thinking alike................Erica also.

The other thing that irks me, is National All Stars.

I like it when people say he is the NATIONAL CHAMPION, all star.....................

The title of NATIONAL GRAND should only be in those GRAND classes. There is no National Grand Champion Color, etc etc etc.

Our stallion IMAGE is a NATIONAL GRAND CHAMPION, and our gelding Target is a RESERVE NATIONAL GRAND CHAMPION................so when I see them used incorrectly it bothers me.

 

[Bess Kelly]

Yep......some misadvertise knowingly, some are innocently wrong.......most know the difference. I always stated the class as I felt it was important. I mean halter & color are two different worlds.

That said -- why does anyone who has been able to place in the top ten at Regionals or Nationals/World not think that is fantastic?? I mean you are looking at the cream of the crop in most all of the classes at these levels and the competition is tough, tough, tough. IMO being in the top ten is quite an honor!

:

I haven't shown my horses in several years but, when we did, I was very proud of their wins. A showcase in my living room holds the statues!!!!!!!!!! Of course the very #1 place is coveted but, geesh -- top ten in the nation is nothing to be ashamed of Just make it say the right thing in the ads.

 

[Cathy_H]

OK this is how I have Tia's worded on our web site. If it is not correct what should it say ?.... Area Two National Show - 1st in Yearlings, Junior Champion, & Overall Grand Champion ~ ~ Area three National Show - Reserve Grand Champion ~ ~ Derby City Spring Fling - Junior Champion, Senior Reserve Champion & a Reserve Junior Champion ......................................... I'm looking at two of these ribbons from the Derby City Spring Fling - One says Senior Reserve Champion & one says Reserve Junior Champion. Why is the Reserve put in the middle of one & comes first in the other???

: Some of us have reason to be confused !!

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I can't stand it when I see a horse advertised as a National Champion and it was 5th or something like that. . Only first place is the Champion and second is the Reserve! Please folks!!!!

LOL Jean, you took the words right out of my mouth. If you are advertising a Top Ten, and there was only 8 in the class, well............................. :no:

Laurie,

Don't worry, this isn't a trick question just so I can get ticked...I don't get ticked that easily!

: But, just so I better understand how others may perceive my advertisements, are you saying that if there are only 10, or less, in the class that advertising it as a top ten is misleading? I always include in my wording "class of 9". Would I be better off not referring to his top ten since there were so few in the class? I'd be interested in hearing opinions.

Thanks!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I think it would be most honest, if that is not too strong a term, when advertising a "Top Ten" to state his placement- "placed 5th out of 6 in top ten" does not sound so impressive but gives a far better idea of the horse's abilities- after all, those horses all had to qualify to be there and a statement like that tells me a lot about the advertiser!!