Natural Breeding/Management can Work!

[Rootin Tootin]

:no: I need to re-iterate once again....I do NOT think that a yearling filly should run with the herd per say. Like I said, I have never had one at this age, hence my confusion at what happened. But my herd is NOT off somewhere in the natural to the extent that I do not have them close enough to know EXACTLY what is going on. My filly was removed the moment I noticed something wrong - this didn't just happen but has been seperated all summer and in my current padock setting, it just can't work long term.

I was only pointing out that (in my own opinion and farm) it works better (for me) to let my stallion run with the band year round. Have had no problems with quabbles, fighting or baby mis-handling, ever. (just this one filly that made it to her first birthday)

I did some research now and have found that in a number of references that the stallion "herds" out the yearlings, typically at 2 years or first estrus. This appears to be a built-in mechanism to help avert possible father-daughter breedings.

As far as the fact that miniatures were "hand-made" by us...

The mold was there...we certainly didn't create that. Their instincts are far stronger than we give them credit. They weren't dogs turned to horses...although wow...I have had my doubts as I observe my little pumpkins at times. They are horses. Wonderful beautiful majestic and inherant to their very nature, horses.

: Yes...I have a little over 40 acres that my little herd calls it's very own.

I realize that (and knew in my heart) that I wouldn't ever be able to allow foals to reach their one year b-day and still be running with the herd. This forum has confirmed that with out even a doubt for me.

In the spirit of breeding and farm management, I would still like to confirm that when I say Natural Can Work...I mean this:

Stallion's that have been handled and raised and are deemed safely adjusted within a herd certainly can be a continuous member of that herd. Year round. I know, because it has worked here for me. Safely. (with the exception of yearling inclusion!!!!!!)

Thank you all so much!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was "getting at " you, I was not, not at all.

If you look back in the threads you will see we have become a little over sensitive lately about "advice" given and so I was probably a little heavy handed in my response.

The trouble with internet is you cannot see expression or interpret intent- it must be the nearest we come to understanding a deaf/blind persons point of view!!

Please do not be put off voicing opinions , all we can ever do, experienced and new to horses alike, is give out opinions!!

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Sue McDonnald is a recognized expert in the field of stallion behavior. That said, not all the other experts always agree with her

She's a phenominal person, one I'd absolutely DIE to spend time learning from, but she is not the only expert out there.

I perscribe to the heavier management techniques, and have seen and dealt with the severe negative effects that can occur through more natural techniques. Remember, nature doesn't care if your stallion dies and another replaces him. I certainly do, however. So I don't let nature take its course all the time. Its dangerous for a yearling and older colts to run with a stallion, eventually they will be attacked and run from the herd.

 

[Margaret]

I also loved reading miniwhinny's post. :aktion033: Its allways nice to hear how things are done in the wild..

:

I tried this with a young colt when I first got into minis, but as he matured he seemed to not respect the wishes of the mares as I had hoped even in a acre plus- pasture setting. . So for the sake of the mares I seperated him because of this. :no:

Then I got a different colt, and raised him with the mares insted..... am thankful to say that he is subservient to the mare's every wish, and now, at 3 years old, he is with the mares day and night, 24-7. He loves, and respects them and they accept him. I have even noticed him exchanging scratches with the Boss mare, at her initive.

This is the way I allways wanted it to be, but for some reason,- not every stallion will be that respectful of their mares in captivity, as I noticed with my last stallion.

 

[HaazeMinis]

I would like to welcome "Rootin Tootin" to this forum because it is a wealth of imformation. Although I do not post much I read alot.

:

This is indeed a very touchy subject. I usually dont get involved in topics such as these however I do know this person very well

: and I can personally say she takes very good care of her animals and cares for them like they were her children

: . They get all the care that they need and she does have a barn with stalls so its not like they are ignored and like she said in a previous post "They do not lack for anything" including veterinary care!

The issue with the yearling filly (now coming two year old). I might add to that the filly in question is not sired by the stallion she has now. Not that it has any bearing on running the stallion with her. (Not something I myself would do on purpose) but ,you know she could have easily just had the topic locked or removed and not responded at all to any of the posts as a few have been pretty harsh. However, she is still here and she has removed the filly and I do not think she will do that again.

:

It appears she is here to learn more so PLEASE try not to be to judge her to harshly. She is VERY nice person who does not claim to know everything there is to know and she is only giving her opinions on what HER experience has been

: so far in the 6 years she has her minis.

:

: So, please be nice because it truely sounds like she wants to learn and she is listening to the feedback.

I highly doubt anyone who is a "newbie" would just go out and try this method. I myself still consider myself a "newbie" and have had some mistakes here at my small farm and I have been in it since "03". and have corrected the problems I have had previously. I am still learning and will continue to do so thanks to this Forum and my "mini mentors" .

I have seen many "newbies" come here and be "judged" and the next thing you know they "dissappear" and surely it is not the intention of the Forum members who post replies however some posts do get a bit harsh sometimes which I believe has something to do with the replies they get regarding certain issues.

:

So WELCOME to the LB Forum form here in CENTRAL WISCONSIN ! HAAZE MINIATURES welcomes you here with open arms ! (((HUGS))) :aktion033:

Please stick around ! I just love it here and always learn something new here and there is alot of forum members here from all over the world that mentor and have many many years experience who are very helpful!

:

. OH and PS I LOVE THAT LITTLE FILLY YOU HAVE IN YOUR FIRST POST

:

: :bgrin I wonder if I am partial to her though for "other" reasons ! :bgrin

Jeri

 

[Marnie]

I think the biggest problem is the fact that she said she's run all her horses together for six yrs so at first, people thought she'd been running yrling fillies with the band for six yrs, why wouldn't they? Because that is what would happen if you ran a band of horses together for six yrs. Now they know it's only one filly that she has, I'm sure this is the thing that has the people bugged. (How could she have run horses together for 6 yrs and only got 1 yrling filly in there?) Too many of us have seen yrlings bred, some people have luck when they foal, most don't. I think that most people believe in natural settings. My stallions are great with the mares and foals too, I've never had one that wasn't and I do separate somewhat in the winter time, I can't have winter foals and if she is in WI, I can't imagine her wanting them either. I didn't see where she stated how many horses she actually has or maybe I missed it. If she only has a few, she could know if they're bred and run them together over winter. I do know that alot of people jump on new people in a bad way (some new buyers that I have sent here have left because of it) but in this case, I think they're just trying to help her see the light on the yrling filly or fillies. They thought it was an ongoing thing. Also the leaving to foal alone, I have lost way to many in the sack to ever do that again, (and I've lost a few mares with me and the vets right there) here again, she hasnt' really stated how many foals she's had in the six yrs, if she's had alot, I think most of us doubt they were all alive. Before I got my barn set up with the camera's and equipage, that first yr, I had a "dead baby hole" , I won't believe anyone can let a lot of mares foal naturally with good luck. One guy tried to tell me that untill I really questioned him, found out the truth, my heart can't take that. But I do hope she hangs around, she should stay on this thread and explain more possibly. People, including me, just bristle with the yrling filly and stallion thing, I think we all know people who do this on purpose and won't listen to anyone, then the horse has to suffer the results. I hope everyone has a great weekend.

 

[Lauralee]

Marnie wrote:

Also the leaving to foal alone, I have lost way to many in the sack to ever do that again, (and I've lost a few mares with me and the vets right there) here again, she hasnt' really stated how many foals she's had in the six yrs, if she's had alot, I think most of us doubt they were all alive. Before I got my barn set up with the camera's and equipage, that first yr, I had a "dead baby hole" , I won't believe anyone can let a lot of mares foal naturally with good luck.

And I have to wholeheartedly agree. I do not have a problem with running a good natured stallion with the mares all year round. I DO have a problem with yearling fillies being part of his band. Additionally what has not been addressed is the foaling: MINIATURE HORSES ARE A MAN MADE BREED. They do not do well when left to foal unattended. Many of us have lived through the horror of needlessly losing foals, while just letting them foal out naturally (unattended).

To each his own, and we all have the right to our own opinions, but as for ME and MINE, we'll be using the foaling stall, birth alarms, and camera systems. I don't like waking up to find dead buckskin pinto fillies not one bit. Happened once and won't happen again if I can help it.

 

[Minimor]

I guess I've been a bit confused by the contradiction in rootin tootin's posts--she starts out offering the filly for sale because the stallion rejected this filly from the herd. The implication there is that if the stallion hadn't rejected the filly, this yearling filly would have been kept, and presumably left in the herd. My assumption from this is that there are other yearling fillies being left in the herd. Then she turns around and says she doesn't leave yearling fillies in the herd--it's okay, because this one has been removed. Sorry, I got that this one was removed, but only for a reason.

There is a difference in the wild herds in that they range where they can, often on pastures that aren't lush. They probably mature a bit later because of that--yearling fillies may not come into heat, at least not in many cases. No doubt some still do. Domestic horses usually have better feed; even if they aren't on dry feed, they are out on better pastures--and if those pastures become depleted they receive supplemental feedings--domestic fillies do often start having heat cycles in their yearling year, often even by the time they are 8 to 10 months old. Comparing a domestic herd to wild herds isn't quite the same thing.

I don't have a problem with stallions running out with their mares. I do however disagree with having the yearling fillies out with the stallion.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Remember, nature doesn't care if your stallion dies and another replaces him. I certainly do, however. So I

Now there you go that sums the WHOLE thing up for me.. nature doesnt really care if any animal dies as the bottom line is there will be another one to replace it in the chain..

Thanks Nathan for summing it up so simply!

 

[Marnie]

It has been brought to my attention that I do know this person, she takes good care of her horses, I just think the posts are a little confusing. AND even my donkey would have lost her baby last wk if I hadn't had her on camera with the monitor on her halter. I've been told many times and have read all over that donkeys can foal alone, yeah, right! The first one I lost to cold mudd, then I learned, at her expense, thats alot of BS too. I was there for Evie, her babies neck was so twisted, head sideways way to high, we'd lost her and the foal if I hadn't been there. If people can get by with foaling the natural way, alone and in the pasture, that's great for them but to me, I bred these mares, I'll be there for them, that's the reason I'm trying to sell more before spring, as I am working now and afraid I'll not be there when they need me. But this poster is a great person and I believe is good with her horses.

 

[Beccy]

Welcome to the board Rootin Tootin, I am not out to criticize anyone else for their herd management practices, but will add my own two cents on one point.

I think many of us like to keep our herds as naturally as possible, but my first thought is exactly what Lauralee said about losing foals in the sac, which seems to be not uncommon in miniatures. I know people who have lost foals that didn't make it out before suffocating, and in the years that we have been breeding, we have had three here that would have perished had we not been there, as the sac did not break. Sometimes foals are lost despite all precautions, but to lose one that could have been prevented would be heartbreaking. We prefer not to take any unnecessary chances if at all possible.

 

[miniwhinny]

I noticed a few folks are refering to my post on wild horses and I'm really glad people enjoyed it. I want to clarify that it was meant more as a look into the lives of wild horses than a "we should be doing this" with our mini's post. I'm posting this clarification in case any newbies think I'm advocating running our mini's totally wild ...NOT! They are not wild.

Stallions are the most social members of the herd (from what I've seen) and I truely think they need a life reflecting that, that really was the idea behind my post. Be it with a mare band or other bachelor studs (away from mares)

That said I must add (because I never thought it would be taken wrongly) Yes yearling fillys get bred in the wild. Most loose their babies during the first winter when there isn't enough food even for themselves and I'm sure some die during birth. Wild horses suffer all kinds of problems from predation, illness, injury, starvation and it's no cake walk etc. A few years ago an entire herd in Utah (29 horses) died when their water hole dried up. Usually the BLM check but in this case they didn't realize the horses were at that spot until it was too late. I'm sure we're not about to stop filling our troughs to replicate nature.

Rootin'Tootin' this is NOT a response to you - please don't think it is...to be honest I haven't read the entire thread yet. WELCOME. It's just in response to a few posts I've read so far.

Knowing our animals instincts and needs, which despite domesticity still remain strong. Helps us to care for them within our own domestic situation. I'm not about to let my dogs run wild. We must use common sense in everything we do. I have 2 parrots that are not caged. They have an entire Florida room to themselves but I'm not about to free them to the Oregon Winters...we have to provide our creatures the best life based on the confinds of balancing their well being with their safety.

My stallion lives with his mare. I don't want her bred back next year so I'm going to have to buy/lease or borrow another mare to keep him company, that's how strongly I believe in letting a stallion have a decent life. That said...my preggy mare already has a stall reserved at my vets for the birth. My number one need with her is her care and safety. I do NOT advocate letting them birth naturally. As she won't be with Ozy next year I'll leave the baby with her as long as she looks good (like Wesco has found

: ) However if her baby is a filly she won't have access to Ozy after 6 months (incase she has an early heat cycle) Accidents can and do happen.

Learn about your animals needs (any animal/bird etc that you own and then try to provide them the best life in captivity

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:

 

[Rootin Tootin]

:538: First of all "HI JERI" Oh my gosh... How very good to hear your voice (see your voice) Thank you for your kind words and I have tried to remember throughout this posting that perhaps things are taken out of perspective and people don't "know" me or my love for my critters and my farm.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading the posts for the most part. I would like to clarify a couple things however if only for my peace of mind.

1. I haven't during the 6 years ran yearlings ever with the herd because I have always sold the babies. Now Little Bit (the filly I am selling) was different and had a special bond in my heart. Some just seem to tug at your heart strings more than others. A. Different Stallion as Sire B. Did Know my present stallion and old stallion had to be seperated when my new stallion was very young...um...for this whole very same reason. C. Did think that somehow I could introduce my Little Bit back into the herd and quickly realized I couldn't D. Did seperate and make hard decision to sell Little Bit.

2. I have had 2 foals die on my farm in 6 years. A. One was the first year I had miniatures and was a mare I had in a stall and checked every 1/2 hour EVERY night until she foaled. I spent the entire day home in bed crying and crying and crying and crying. B. The other was my 2nd year I believe and a very petite AMHA mare that (as my vet told me and in his opinion) was too small to foal and there was nothing I could do to help her. I lost this mare as well during this experience. Soooo.... one mare was stalled and being watched and there was nothing I could do. The other was in upper padock.. watched... but not stalled and there was nothing I could do. My vet tried to reassure me that it was completely out of my hands but I still blamed myself and beat myself up for quite some time. My vets quote: "Horses have foaled for centuries on their own without our human hands to assist them." This may infuriate some of you but I agree with him and since letting them do it themselves in an unobtrusive invasive way...they have all foaled since then and zero mortality! KEEP IN MIND: I have over 40 acres and they are not stuck in a tiny pasture, forced to foal within uncomfortable distances of the rest of the herd, or in compromising locations as it may relate to the ground, etc. They move off, find a quite grassy area and do their miracle!

NOTE: I know that many many many people successfully breed very small AMHA mares. I however, have now moved to AMHR only and prefer my mares at 33"-38." I have had ZERO foaling issues since leaving them to foal in the pasture and having the larger mares. Now perhaps this is only coincidence but in that many years I think there must be SOME relativity. It WAS very very painful to lose them and my decision to foal in-pasture was also a combined decision with past experience and direct guidance and input from my vet. It has worked. I certainly hope it continues to work. This last spring/summer I had 7 healthy bouncing babies...all pasture born....unassisted. Most times I, during my morning inspection of the pasture, find the baby still dewy from birth and wobbly next to momma. I always locate the birth sack and inspect for abnormalities , tears, etc.

3. Also directly related to the unassisted foaling. Immediately AFTER foaling, mom and baby are brought to the barn for contact, lovin, pro-biocin and overall inspection. If the mare has foaled too early to desire a foal, then I keep her seperated until her next heat cycle when a more desirable foaling date can be achieved. NO, I don't want Mid-Winter foals here in Wisconsin!!!!! Ick.

I don't want to and given my farm configuration, don't think I need to make a stallion seperation. I like the demeanor of the entire herd with their current make-up and diversity. It is working and you don't fix what isn't broken. I know things can change, but I will definately monitor that situation. The boss mare and my stallion are tightly bonded and the herd follows suit. It is a very harmonious group with at this time 11 mares, one 06 baby left and my stallion. NOTE: I added 4 additional mares this last summer and do not wish the herd to grow any larger at this time. I believe this is a fairly ideal number both in relation to mares and what Flash can realistically take care of (both breeding and herd managment wise) and also for time that is needed per foal on my behalf. Again...a decision based not only on my personal wishes and opinion but also conferred with and discussed (as to options) with my vet.

Again.. thank you all so much for the input, knowledge and warm welcome. I have more to learn.. I think we must continue to learn don't we, even after years and years? I DO KNOW now that I will not include any yearlings with the current herd, it is just obviously never a working situation and I am glad that I had the common sense to have removed Little Bit when I did. I must admit there was a part of me that wished she could just stay and now know that there really is no way she can because I will not keep a stalled horse on this farm.

Thanks again all, I will continue to visit the forums....it is informative!!!! Always good to hear others and the ways they make it all happen! :saludando:

 

[HaazeMinis]

I should also CLARIFY before I myself get "jumped" on for posting what seems to be a reply "defending" her.

:

I dont NOT operate in this manner NOR WILL I! I myself have Foaling stalls, Foaling Cameras & The Eqipage System. I don't have the set-up she does with as many acres and I also DON'T run my stallion with the MARES 24/7 However if my stallion where nicer to my mares and babies and I lived in a warmer climate I just might.

: with the exception of young fillies. Now, my stallion had other ideas very late last year and as a result I have 2 VERY LATE FOALS on the ground ( both born in October) :new_shocked: :no: and one due approx LATE DECEMBER OR EARLY JANUARY. :new_shocked: :no: . I am not looking forward to wintering babies and foaling out a mare when its that cold, but ACCIDENTS & MISTAKES DO HAPPEN!

I am just trying to "hopefully" let Forum members know that she is a VERY nice person who admitted to making mistakes which she has learned by.

Like I said I know her personally and she has even stated she DOES NOT condone , NOR RECOMMEND this pratice.

So, I just hope that we can keep this thread from becoming a free for all.

Jeri

 

[minimama]

I have not gone through and read all of the posts so if this has already been stated I do appologize, but, Miniature horses have never been wild horses. So, treating them and raising them as if they had been, well, that is just dangerous in my own opinion. I do not see looking out for the animals we have brought to our homes is over managing. We take care of our dogs and cats the same way. We give them the best we can and make sure they are safe and well.

Each to his own, unless it becomes a danger. To me, running a yealring with a stallion is a danger.

 

[Margaret]

Miniature horses did not evolve, we bred them..

: Thus I dont think they would last too long in a wild environment.. The larger stallions would run off the smaller stallions, and the breed would not continue to thrive..

Just like any man made breed, they have some vunerable areas., that we must protect, and maintain for their best intrest.

 

[Songcatcher]

Since I was the one who made the first "negative" comment to this post, I would like to clarify my response.

The original post SEEMED to me to be advocating the leaving of yearling fillies in the herd setting and that the situation had existed for the last six years. It has been clarified that that is not the case.

I think many others read the original post the same way I did and I see a danger in some people thinking it is a "cool" or "neat" way to do things. In fact, it can be extremely dangerous, as I feel sure everyone on here is aware of by now.

I also want to clarify my comments on providing feed and health care. I was not intending to insinuate that Rootin Tootin was not providing such care, but that I consider separating fillies from the herd of equal importance to providing these necessities.

We do all have something to learn, regardless of how long we have been raising/breeding. I have seen some breeders who have been in the business much longer than I who do things I cannot imagine doing. I also see people who are much newer than I who have some really good ideas that I had not thought of.

I too want to welcome Rootin Tootin to the Forum. I admire your level headedness in responding to the replies. Hope you will stick around.