Neck sweating...Isnt this cheating????

[shane]

I ALSO LIVE IN IRELND AND WE ARE ONLY GETTING OFF THE GROUND,WELL FOR ME IVE LEARNED AN AWFUL LOT SINCE JOINING THE FORUM,I HAVE SINCE JOINING STARTED TO FEED MY HORSES BOSS AND FLAX SEEDS,I AM CURRENTLY USING A NECK SWEAT AS MY STALLIONS NECK IS PRETTY SHORT,AND I FEEL IT WILL OUTLINE IT BETTER, BUT ON THE DEFENSE OF US IRISH,WE ARE ONLY LEARNING AND ANY INFORMATION IS APPRECIATED SO WE DO THE BREED JUSTICE,WE DONT HAVE ANY QUALIFIERS,TO GO TO ENGLAND,AND WE DONT STRETCH THEM WHEN THEY ARE STANDING,WE DONT GEL DOWN THERE HAIR ,WE HAVE SOOOO MUCH TO LEARN AND I FEEL THAT THIS PLACE IS BETTER THAN ANY BOOK,AND IM SOAKING IT UP LIKE A BIG DRY SPONGE,AND ILL BE OUT THIS YEAR BUYING MY GEL,AND TEACHING MY HORSES TO STAND AND MAYBE I MIGHT BE DARING AND BALD HIS NOSE LOL :bgrin YOU NEVER KNOW I MIGHT JUST WIN ONE OF THE CLASSES!!! :aktion033: IN OUR HAND BOOK WE GET WE HAVE TO STAND OUR HORSES SQUARE,AND OUR MEASURMENTS ARE DIFFERENT,I WISH I NEW HOW TO SCAN ON TO THE COMPUTER,BECAUSE IT VERY INTERESTING THE DIFFERENCES,IN OUR RULES,I DO HOWEVER FAVOUR THE AMERICAN WAY OF SHOWING AND I PREFER THERE HORSES THATS WHY A LOT OF OURS ARE IMPORTS FROM AMERICA MINE INCLUDED WAS SIRED BY AN AMERICAN TOYLAND HORSE, AS WAS SLANEYROSES HORSE AN IMPORT,AND WEVE SPENT TOP DOLLAR SO WE ARE TRYING

:

 

[kaykay]

i tried to stay off this thread because i knew it was going to get heated. Slaney i apologize for how you have been treated in this thread. Its a question that gets asked here on the forum quite often and I guess the title just hit some people the wrong way. I have never yet sweated a horses neck to show it but if I felt the need I would maybe do it. So far I have never felt the need. But I dont think it is cheating its just another grooming technique in my book to make a horse look better.

I will say however that I have seen some MISERABLE horses standing in show stalls with a slinky plus a neck sweat plus a throatlatch sweat in 100 degree weather. They usually stand with their hands hanging just looking miserable. I do think in high heat these things should be taken off.

One other thing is that you rarely see all these neck and throat latch sweats on shetland ponies. There are some but not nearly the numbers that minis are sweated. Last year I took a friend to congress and that was the first thing she said right off the bat is wow look at all these horses not wearing neck sweats!

 

[Cathy_H]

QUOTE(Cathy_H @ Feb 12 2006, 08:11 PM) I mean, how did we go from what I would pretty much call a "thick neck breed" to these thin necked horses without human intervention....... I know some of you have thinner necked horses naturally but I have a hard time believing so many horses acquired this look in such a short time......So tell me, how can I and other buyers tell "what you see is what you get" ?

Easy. Ban neck sweating so that you KNOW that what you see is what you get! That's my point and my only problem with sweating

Easy?? ??

: How are you going to monitor that this is NOT being done on the farm when horses can't even be measured at their correct height in FRONT of officials at a horse show?

:

Added...........

I will say however that I have seen some MISERABLE horses standing in show stalls with a slinky plus a neck sweat plus a throatlatch sweat in 100 degree weather

---- Exactly- some can hardly move enough to even eat or drink.

 

[HGFarm]

I dont think its cheating any more than wearing a girdle, panty hose with 'tummy control' or a push up bra!!!

Neck sweating is a temporary thing and does not get rid of TONS of fat or fix a horrible neck.

Me? I am ready to join you ladies at the spa to get rid of some of my extra.....!!

 

[Christine]

a lot of you so called well respected people are very harsh for learners young and old weither we have been in horses 1 day or 75 years we all have something to learn and those who say they know it all are lying (not implying anyone has said that) but who the @*#@ cares if they show or have anything to do with showing dont you think or question the way things are done that you have nothing to do with you just wonder about it, I know I question my husbands work from time to time wonder why they do things they way they do it and he calmly explains to me why I may not understand but he informs me and this is the way it is and guess what it has NOTHING to do with how i do things becuase it is HIS work, but lets go ahead and beat them some more with that whip and show how mature we are. And while we are still there please re-read everone else's posts including mine and in bold letters show us all how to spell. good place to learn once you weed out all the rude disrespectful people I realize we all have oponions (look did we catch that spelling error) but some can come across very ugly like mine esp. when you can not hear my tone or discust.

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

When I went to my first mini show as an observer I was horrified at the sight of all those sweats, slinkies, wraps, on and on. I have always said that I will never do to my horse something that I wouldn't be willing to do on myself--my personal choice and way of looking at things. When I tried a neck sweat on my mare(fleece lined) I put one around my waist as well. It didn't bother me at all, nor did it bother her. She lets me know in no uncertain terms when she is not ammused with things, and she couldn't care less about the sweats as long as I keep those hoods off of her! I wear make-up to work and try to dress in things that flatter my figure and play up my good points while minimizing my hips--so why would it be a problem to do that for my mare as long as it doesn't bother her? Everything can be taken to extremes, and that is where so many of the problems come in. I would never do acupunture or have cosmetic surgery, so I wouldn't consider it for my horses...plain and simple. I also wouldn't sacrifice my own health or theirs to look a tiny bit better. Sweating worked wonders for the way my mare and I looked in the show ring and didn't hurt either one of us, so in the future--why not do it again?

-Amy

 

[randy]

You don't live in America.
Therefore, most likely, you don't compete in either the AMERICAN miniature horse association shows or the AMERICAN miniature horse registry shows.

So, why, pray tell, would you start a debate on the topic of neck sweating as cheating if it doesn't make one iota of difference to your circumstances whether it is or isnt?

Unvelievable.....

Please excuse me for having to point this out, because it seems that you do not have all information needed:

In Europe we have several AMHA approved shows! So technicaly we can qualify for the worlds etc.

And you can come over here to compete and earn points etc...

:

You're very welcome by the way...

:

And yes...sweating is done over here as well! It can never change a neck, just make it come out more beautifull or more ugly!

I am sooo glad you pointed that out Mijke !!! :aktion033:

: :aktion033:

Sorry slaney.....

 

[user 488]

This is unbelivable!

: Slaney I certainly did not slam you. This was my first post to you below. I took my time to explain to you and answer your questions that you asked.........that's all! I did say that it was obvious you were not familiar with the process. That is NOT slamming you!

As for my second remark about if you did not like neck sweating....don't do it and don't buy a horse that has been sweated.......problem solved was the obvious solution! That wasn't a slam. To me this is exactly the direction where this thread was heading and Lauralee came up with the perfect answer. As the only answer you were going to see is one you agreed with!

So if you feel I slammed you.........too bad! Normally I would apologize to anyone that I might have hurt their feeling as it is not my intention. But I took My time to explain to you how I felt about neck sweating and this has turned into a circus. A Forum is about OPINIONS! If you don't think you will like the answers you will hear then don't ask the question.

NOW.......you go and look at the first page of this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And EVERYONE ELSE GO LOOK TOO! After only FIVE POSTS you were claiming to have been flamed! Where are the flames??????????????? Explain that so we can all understand why you called five people who gave you their honest opinions "FLAME THROWER"? If you are going to accuse people of flaming you point out where the flames are!

First of all sweating should not make a horse feel choked. If a horse feels choked then the person does not know what they are doing. If a horse was choked he would eventually pass out. No doubt people need to learn how to do things properly as anything can hurt an animal if done without proper knowledge.

Second...neck sweating is not a permanent confOrmational change. It does NOT alter confOrmation. It only sweats out the extra fluid in the neck or whatever you are sweating. If not done constantly the neck will go back exactly the way it was. It cannot even be remotely classified as "surgical alteration"!

And yes there are some products that will blister but there are some people that don't have good sense......just like products for humans.......thus the warnings. Some people don't know the difference between neoprene and fleece. One kind is made to work in the other is made to wear all the time.

If you know what you are doing you will not hurt the horse. Unfortunately there is a lot of "monkey see, monkey do"................

Added to say......when a person does not understand something they can get the wrong ideas or come to wrong conclusions about what is really happening. (perfect example..your remarks....a process you are obviously not familiarwith) There are many things that people find abusive or wrong only because it is a unknown to them and they really don't understand the principle behind it.

QUOTE(Lauralee @ Feb 12 2006, 06:55 PM)

If you don't like neck sweating, ....then don't do it! And don't buy a horse that has been sweated if it bothers you that much.
See? Problem solved.

Great answer Lauralee!

 

[user 488]

Is liposuction illegal according to your rulebook? I think it would be classified as surgical alterations?

According to AMHA, rule GR-040-D states "No horse having had surgery for purely cosmetic purposes will be permitted to show". In my mind, that would include liposuction as well as electric acupuncture (of the neck).

Thanks Becky for answering that question. I was pretty sure that this had to be a rule. Now my question is if so many people are doing it than why isn't it being dealt with? I know it's tough having been thru this with the Arabs . Are people having it done claiming it's cribbing surgery? How are they getting away with this when it's easily dectected???????? And you can email me if you don't want to get into a big thing here as it is a bit off topic. I am just very curious about this.

But I will say I have a difference of opinion on the acupuncture thing. Not that I disagree with you but I don't think it is classified as "surgery" and therefore does not go hand in hand with lipsuction.

To me you would probably have to get a rule change for that and I don't see how that can be done seeing that acupunture, like I said before, is used for so many other things.

But again, thanks for answering the question.

Carol

 

[Lauralee]

A post seeking information would have sounded something like this:

Please help me understand neck sweating. I do not live in America (presenting all facts ahead of time) and I have some questions. Does the neck sweat hurt the horse? Does it choke the horse? Will it blister the horse? Is sweating a horse against the rules of AMHA shows or AMHR shows? I have only heard about neck sweating in the past 3 weeks (again, presenting all facts in advance) so I am curious about this practice.

And if your post were more intended to ask questions about your cresty mare then it should have immediately stated so up front, and it would be obvious to me that the mare in question would have been discussed in a different way than bringing up cheating and choking and so forth.

Instead your post title was inflammatory, and you knew it would be from the start. The statements you chose to write were not entirely truthful, as you did not disclose your location, or level of knowledge at the beginning.

It does no good to start a wildfire and then coyly step back claiming to be attacked, when your original post was misleading, and accusatory. They way you worded your post, and withheld certain facts was intended to stir the pot.

I stand by my comments and wholly agree with Carol's statement that :

If you don't think you will like the answers you will hear then don't ask the question.

 

[Conundrum]

Well, I am from England, where we have at least three societys that we can show with (provided our horses are registered with or we have fullfilled the show requirements) I choose to show mainly with the UK society that shows AMHA style with AMHA sanctioned shows. I also show with one other society. I DO sweat, only horses that I think need it, not as a general rule. I love to see horses prepared well for show, looking clean, sleek and fit, shown to their best advantage. I think sweating is just one of the "tools" we have at our disposal to help us to create the "show" look, after all, as someone else said earlier in this thread, it is a SHOW, a beauty contest, and of course we should get our animals looking the best they can.

I would be the first to come down on anyone I thought was abusing their animals in any way, but I can think of a whole host of bad practice at shows that I would jump on before I jumped on someone sweating their horses neck.

Slaneyrose, I am sorry you have had some replies that could have been kinder, I think that our friends in Ireland are coming on to be a force to be reckoned with, hopefully we will soon be able to participate in each others shows. (The Irish dog circuit is absolutely the best fun....not horse related I know...but hey ho!!)

 

[willowoodstables]

Eeek..

If any of you who disagree or think sweating is cheating please try something. Bend over and tie your shoes and hold your breath. If you are in top physical shape and all your abs are tight and you are on the thinner side, it's no problem. Add a couple rolls extra and it's tough to do. Period.

That said, I sweat necks regularily in the show season. Why?? Because I drive my horses (and show in halter). If the performance horses are a little "flabby" at the throat latch they get worked in a full sweat and then bathed after. In their stalls I use cotton wraps (from my Saddlebred days). Why? As mentioned it removes excess water and helps the horse keep a finer thoatlatch to bend it's neck without compromising breathing.

I have had Saddlebreds and Hackneys for a zillion years. Fortunately the breed has a fine throat latch. I find mini's to have not been so lucky. I help them. Just like putting miles on in a jogger to build leg, wind and muscle. Or using sidelines to build a topline so the horse can elevate and carry itself in harness. No horse is perfect in conformation, but you can, without cruel or hurtful techniques, bring out the best and enhance a horse.

Slaney and others, I don't think anyone is flaming you. I think they are in all honesty trying to help you understand the difference between cheating and beautification (clipping, hoof black, sweating, clean sheets over freshly bathed horse). Cheating is surgery (liposuction, cutting ham strings), permanent dyes, fake hair appliances etc.

If you mare has a fallen crest, it is not from previous sweating. If you don't like the idea of sweating your horse, you don't have to do it to be competetive. Especially if your horse is gifted with a fine throatlatch. A studdy or thick neck will not become thinner just from sweating. You need to literally starve the fat off and geld the stallion and hope for the best, not something I advocate.

It is all in the bottom line of what you want to do (or not do) with your horses IMHO. I want a driving horse that can lift, elevate, drive off the backend AND wear his head. The horse I chose does have a fine throatlatch, I sweat it to make sure he doesn't get "rolls" in this area. As a halter horse, I didn't sweat his neck at all prior to the Nationals..honest. Here he is :

Below is an example of a horse without a fine throatlatch, and it will NEVER be fine, but with a cotton sweat and a full work sweat he will be able to bend more at the poll (I hope). And I used him to demonstrate it is not just mini related. This is a big hairy Gypsy Cob

As in he is bending in the middle of his neck, not at the "hinge" in the poll. I use this analagy from the perspective not related to a halter horse. I think there is a lot in this thread that can be used to understand, as in pro's and con's, but IMHO, as having 30+ years under my belt in various breeds, I have seen sweats on dressage horses, standardbreds, show draft horses besides the minis. hackneys and saddlbreds. Each one had a specific reason and it seemed to accomplish that.

Kim

 

[Relic]

On the subject of sweating necks could someone tell me how long ahead of the first show do you start. l did it half aresed last year while lunging and the year before for a month ahead of the first show and it seemed to have helped but like some l honest to god thought it was not a nice thing to do to the horse. Anyway knowing now what l know because in my neck of the woods asking someone else these questions is almost like pulling teeth because as far as they are concerened they would never sweat a neck l'll ask here and hope for an answer. Also is it okay to sweat a yearling neck or not l think one of the yearlings might have done much better if she had a cleaner throatlatch l was told. No flames just asking so l can learn.

 

[slaneyrose]

If you mare has a fallen crest, it is not from previous sweating. If you don't like the idea of sweating your horse, you don't have to do it to be competetive. Especially if your horse is gifted with a fine throatlatch. A studdy or thick neck will not become thinner just from sweating. You need to literally starve the fat off and geld the stallion and hope for the best, not something I advocate.

I know I dont have to do it if I dont want to......and dont actually need to as my horses have lovely necks and do very well in the show ring as they are........I just find it amazing that dying the body of a horse is considered wrong......and neck sweating isnt!

And if your post were more intended to ask questions about your cresty mare then it should have immediately stated so up front, and it would be obvious to me that the mare in question would have been discussed in a different way than bringing up cheating and choking and so forth.

Lauralee.....I didnt start the post to enquire about my mare.......she came to mind as posts were being written, I thought about starting a new post about it but decided to just add my question about her to this....plus if you had read the original post properly you would see that I said "must feel a bit like its being choked" not that owners were ACTUALLY trying to choke their horses!! Many who have posted here have given their opinion in an informative and polite way........why are you being so rude!!! who rattled your cage??? If it was me then I apologise for upsetting you.....But you seem to be deliberately offensive and antagonistic (as others who have sent supportive pms prove) this really seems to have hit a nerve doesnt it?? I wonder why?????

 

[Lauralee]

Its just a simple thing.

If you don't approve of neck sweats, don't use them. Take it or leave it. That simple.

No more energy has to be spent beyond that point. And there is no hidden message there, so don't read more into it.

And you shouldn't ask inflammatory questions unless you can take the responses.

Don't set up traps by omitting details pertinent to the question. Lest the post become a trap.

Me, I'm not upset!

: Seems that you are though, because you didn't agree with the answers provided, or didn't get the desired response. Sorry if I didn't say what you wanted me to say?

For the record, there isn't a single horse on my property wearing a neck sweat. But I don't think that a neck sweat is torture if applied properly. Certainly there is no comparison of neck sweating to surgical revision of a neck.

:

Nobody's attacking you here..... :saludando:

 

[slaneyrose]

Lauralee, its a shame you couldnt have given that straightforward answer in the first place isnt it? In case you havent noticed, several people have commented on the aggressive tone you took......I`m not upset.....far from it......and no one gave me an answer I didnt want to hear,because there is no such answer....I wanted opinions, thats all.... In fact most have been very helpful and informative which is the reason I come to this forum, nothing said here could upset me, except hearing about sad things like that little mares losing the battle recently to hang on to life. THAT upset me.....this is just opinions and information, why on earth would I get upset because someone is rude or unpleasant??? This is just a forum, not my life. :lol:

 

[susanne]

Nobody here was flaming anyone. I've seen no offensive posts here, only those who disagree on this issue. I do not see Slaney's original post as inflammatory, and I do not see the responses as harsh.

It's a given that if you take a stand against a popular technique, you're going to have a lot of disagreement; if you aren't ready for that sort of response, then you are either too thin-skinned or don't really have conviction in your beliefs.

I am speaking as someone who has frequently disagreed with "the way things are done," and I have received many responses disagreeing with me. Have I considered myself to have been flamed? No! Others are being just as honest and opinionated as I am.

Take a deep breath. You don't need to keep quiet or change your mind, but listen to what others have to say. Whether or not you agree, you'll learn where they are coming from.

 

[Sue_C.]

I have been following this post closely, and there has been a lot of great information brought forth...but not without some "peckish" commentary.

:

Lisa-Ruff n tuff minis--- i dont care what a horse has won locally and even at the National level if they cant prove themselves in the breeding shed there titles dont mean much IMO

This is exactly how I feel myself. Titles do not a sire or dam make...always... Besides, if that were so, then we would all own champions by champions, and not even try to make our own...where's the fun in that?

:

PockertPoniesVa--When I went to my first mini show as an observer I was horrified at the sight of all those sweats, slinkies, wraps, on and on.

Oh my goodness...we were sweating arabian, Quarterhorse and Appaloosa necks 30 years ago...and probably before that.

Willowwoodstables--I think there is a lot in this thread that can be used to understand, as in pro's and con's, but IMHO, as having 30+ years under my belt in various breeds, I have seen sweats on dressage horses, standardbreds, show draft horses besides the minis. hackneys and saddlbreds. Each one had a specific reason and it seemed to accomplish that.

Exactly so...although Kim, although how can we have been doing all this for so long...when we are still so young-at-heart?? :lol:

Suzanne--Since he is a gelding and nobody is looking to breed to him, I see no harm. I don't feel that sweating is cheating or cruel.I do have mixed feelings when it comes to sweating the necks of stallions and mares, as it does muddy the waters when trying to breed for a naturally slim neck. If this is a goal in the breed, we should be seeking to achieve a beautiful neck through breeding rather than by sweating, and a horse that can go into the show ring without being sweated is obviously the better horse.

Now here, I beg to differ. Not in the sweating of stallions and mares, but with the statement, "nobody is looking to breed to him, I see no harm". To me, a gelding is the perfect horse; the perfect promotional tool... If we can't look at a gelding, and think to ourselves...Wow...I would love to have a horse just like him...what are we breeding for...just more stallions and mares? I have waitied so impatiently, and most excitedly, for my young gelding to come of age, so I could get to training him and take him out on the road...I plan on him--selling more of his brothers and sisters.

:

After all this...no, I haven't needed to sweat his neck at all, and he wasn't gelded until late in his second year. But would I if I felt the need? Most certainly.

:

On the whole...this is a great post. I kind of enjoy it when everyone has opinions which don't always coincide...it would be pretty boring if we all agreed, all the time.

 

[minimomNC]

Our first show is March 31, some of my horses have had sweats on since early Jan. We leave them on 24/7 and take them off to wash once a week. We have two sets per horse and replace anything that is worn out. Our horses don't even think about having them on. They are so use to them. Do they all need it, probably not, but I like the look of a tight, clean throat latch, most of mine have genetically beautiful necks. Not thick or heavy. I bought them for just that reason. I looked at sires and dams that have been on pasture for a few years with no work and bought my horses from backgrounds like that. It isn't cruel. Compared to some things that go on in this and every other horse industry, this is nothing.

Think of it this way, a model would never do a photo shoot with no make up. Doesn't hurt her but sure does enhance her image. Sweats to me are the same thing. A means to a beautiful end. Doesn't hurt them, but sure does enhance that image.

 

[Dream]

If you don't approve of neck sweats, don't use them. Take it or leave it. That simple.
No more energy has to be spent beyond that point.

Lauralee, why do you keep trying to put a full stop on this topic. I think it is a great debate topic and not every debate has a right or wrong answer or a resolution. I think some people have gotten quite defensive here which is very interesting. Slaney's original post had a question mark at the end of it. She asked if it was cheating which is very different from suggesting it was cheating. Again you have to be pretty defensive to assume this was an accusation.

Relax and discuss folks, that's what this forum is for.