Need advice

[AppyLover2]

Rabbit I think that's a great idea. Too bad someone hasn't picked up on it. It would basically be an automatic repellant.

To address a few things that have been said; Duke was one of those free dogs and was supposedly good with horses. It became obvious after I got him that he had been abused. He had also spent his first 5 years chained to a dog house. The bonding problem is not him - it's me. He is quite obedient, can be called away from the chase with one word; will in fact "get" when I just point my finger.

I am not a bit reluctant to using the shock collar as I feel (as Rabbit obviously did) that it's much better than the alternative.

Question about shock collar training. Since he will stop when I tell him to, should I yell first, or just shock him (when he does something he shouldn't) and act like it wasn't me who caused it??? Since the goal here is to stop the behavior, versus having to call him off, it would appear that just a shock with no verbal command would be best. Opinions please.

And.....thanks for all your input about this.

 

[ali]

Kay,

I truly agree with EVERYTHING you have said. I too, went to Obedience classes with my best friend of 13 yrs. I was 17 yrs old when I was blessed with the beginning of the most amazing friendship with an animal. Without the classes, I highly doubt I would ever have had the knowledge to live happily with dogs.

One word commands and all those you mentioned are very important.

I remember why I was told the down command was so important...these days on the farm the most important is stay and come. Okay, occassionally Cookie seems to be the most important in my dogs opinion.

Sometimes, it can be very difficult to be consistent with training when you have the open space, other things happening at the particular moment that the dog is misbehaving or you simply can't catch the dog. I don't call my dog and then punish him.

Never. Ever.

I would call your dog first and when he doesn't respond zap him and then become his safe spot. I would try to make sure he doesn't associate me with the pain. If he can't understand where it's coming from then he'll behave when you're not there, hopefully.

Good Luck.

 

[Marty]

OK Here I go again, please get this:

IT IS A DOG'S NATURE TO CHASE! Period. That is what dog's do naturally by instinct, most dogs anyhow. They chase cars, and tires, and cats and dogs and horses and everything! DOGS CHASE and that is 100% NORMAL behavior.

My German Shephard will certainly chase too. Cats are her specialty, then horses.

She's bite or nip at them too if I allowed it. Left to their own devices, my dogs would very much be out there raising cane with the animals.

I say to you, that YOU have the problem, not the dog who is acting normal.

You have not trained this dog or worked with this dog and set his limits. So please, do not blame the dog. Train the dog! He is smart but he doesn't know right from wrong unless he's taught, just like a child. Or of course, keep him on a chain or in the house contained away from them when you cannot be there to supervise. The only time my dogs are in the barn yard where they have access to the horses is with me. Otherwise they cannot get through the fence or any of the gates to get out with them in their fields or in the barn yard. This is a very workable situation so take a deep breath and see what you can do to fix this situation without blaming the dog. This German Shephard someday will save your life and you will be very happy to see his loyalty come through for you.

 

[runamuk]

Rabbit I think that's a great idea.  Too bad someone hasn't picked up on it.  It would basically be an automatic repellant.
To address a few things that have been said; Duke was one of those free dogs and was supposedly good with horses.  It became obvious after I got him that he had been abused.  He had also spent his first 5 years chained to a dog house.  The bonding problem is not him - it's me.  He is quite obedient, can be called away from the chase with one word; will in fact "get" when I just point my finger.

I am not a bit reluctant to using the shock collar as I feel (as Rabbit obviously did) that it's much better than the alternative. 

Question about shock collar training.  Since he will stop when I tell him to, should I yell first, or just shock him (when he does something he shouldn't) and act like it wasn't me who caused it???  Since the goal here is to stop the behavior, versus having to call him off, it would appear that just a shock with no verbal command would be best.  Opinions please.

And.....thanks for all your input about this.

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Well my shepherd will come when called problem is if I am cooking in the house I am not right there to call him but I will know the minute he heads for the fence as I can hear him barking........he is also a dog who was quite abused and traumatized and is very submissive.....he isn't easy to work with....in my case I want to shock as he is running toward the fence without calling him ...I want a blind reprimand for running at the fence......I want him to continue to come when called so no negative stimulus association.......

I have consulted several trainers and this is the solution they all reccomend, using the shock collar.

I also have an aussie we got who is learning herding.....he already knows we don't chase/herd/harrass horses period...and he completely ignores them.....yet his herding drive is rather intense.......

 

[tagalong]

Well-trained or not - sometimes a dog will just tune you out and instinct will take over. I had a Smooth Fox Terrier who ALWAYS listened to me - I could call her off of a chase - or anything - and she never failed to respond. Together we won many agility titles... ditto for my borzoi. She loved agility. She could run loose (contrary to what all the advice is about sighthounds) at a dog park or on a hike - and never fail to respond to a recall with enthusiasm. People would remark that they always had thought borzois were stupid... until they met her.

Those girls are gone now

- and the next generation - with the same degree of training and input... is entirely different. This Smooth Fox - also with agility titles etc. up the wazoo will simply tune you out and GO when she is on the hunt or a mission of some kind. She will not listen until she is good and tired... and on the rare occasion when she has found the gate open - that is a terrifying experience to me - with coyotes everywhere.

Yes - she IS well trained - but sometimes breed characteristics take over - just as in the herding group.

I think the best solution for appy is to contact a rescue group - who will gladly find the GSD another home. All sides win.

 

[mininik]

"I have consulted several trainers and this is the solution they all reccomend, using the shock collar."

Honestly, there are more cruddy dog trainers out there than good ones so I'm not surprised. I'd just like to say that I fully agree with everything Marty has had to say on this topic so far.

Would you let one of your horses continue to harrass his herdmates unchecked or would you work with and manage him differently? I'm sure you wouldn't strap a shock collar around his neck...

A blind reprimand (shock) given to an already abused and submissive dog who's just running towards a fence barking at horses probably isn't going to mean much. Dogs cannot read your mind and even if a shock stops the dog, the collar is just a bandaid. What's going to happen when you're not around or the collar comes off and the dog gets out?

No matter, if you don't even really like the dog please just contact a rescue and have them find him a new home where he'll be worked with and loved. He sounds like he has the potential to be a good boy in the right setting, without horses.

 

[runamuk]

"I have consulted several trainers and this is the solution they all reccomend, using the shock collar."

Honestly, there are more cruddy dog trainers out there than good ones so I'm not surprised. I'd just like to say that I fully agree with everything Marty has had to say on this topic so far.

Would you let one of your horses continue to harrass his herdmates unchecked or would you work with and manage him differently? I'm sure you wouldn't strap a shock collar around his neck...

A blind reprimand (shock) given to an already abused and submissive dog who's just running towards a fence barking at horses probably isn't going to mean much. Dogs cannot read your mind and even if a shock stops the dog, the collar is just a bandaid. What's going to happen when you're not around or the collar comes off and the dog gets out?

No matter, if you don't even really like the dog please just contact a rescue and have them find him a new home where he'll be worked with and loved. He sounds like he has the potential to be a good boy in the right setting, without horses.

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since this isn't my thread I didn't want to go into a dissertation on everything that has to do with this dog for the last 4 years....actually several trainers train gundogs and compete regularly and win tons....they are not what I would call crappy trainers by any stretch but they are very accustomed to using shock collars as a training tool in off leash situations...besides I was offering my opinion if you don't care for it you don't need to read it..........

Actually this will probably start a whole new line of attack...but this dog is in his crate if I am not home...period....my borzoi is left out and the old chow has the run of the house the other 3 dogs spend their days crated for their and my safety.....

 

[mininik]

Most of my post really wasn't about your dog, runamuk. I, too, have learned a lot about training dogs from highly competitive gundog folks and the majority I've met do love their shock collars. The whole topic is about appy's dog, however, and I was just trying to make a point that I do not think a shock collar is what her dog needs. As far as crating a dog or dogs I think that's a fine approach and necessary in many cases. I was even thinking of suggesting it in my previous message...

As for not needing to read or reply to posted opinions I think that's what a message board is all about. Maybe if people don't want feedback on their opinions they shouldn't post them?

 

[Marty]

I also want to add that a German Shephard is just plain old smart as a whip.

But they are very capable of getting out of hand and running the show too. Give them and inch, and they will take a yard.

They will completely take over if allowed to do so.

Training with Tracey began the very next day that she arrived her. I put her on a "sit/down/stay" first things she learned. She was in fact quite a nut who was completely wired for sometime. She was like a bull in a china shop. That puppy hood was really like the terrible twos for the first few weeks until we got it straightend out with lots and lots of daily training.

Somedays we trained big time.

Other days we trained just a few minutes of re-inforcment work.

But I will tell you that we never missed a day of training.

Then we went on to very advanced stuff for the Search & Rescue team and then I pulled the plug on that after a while. She is so smart I can tell you that she anticipates my every move and I can't put nothing over on her. But I tell you, these dogs do not train themselves, and there is no quick fix for an unruly dog. You have to spend the time and devote yourself completely or you will get nowhere fast.

They love training. They love that one on one. That is what will connect you and bond you two together only if you want it.

Doesn't sound like you want it very much though and that's ok too so then re-home the dog so he will have a chance with someone that does. Sometimes there's just a personality conflict and that does happen in horses too.

Last but no least, a trained doggy is a happy doggy.....

and oh, did I mention that you kinda gotta watch it or they will take over?

 

[tagalong]

It bothers me a bit that some of you seem to be laying a guilt trip on appy... you need to spend more time with him... you need to go to classes with him... and on and on. She said they never had a "connection" - so why work on something that is not there??

A better solution can be found - for both of them.

And Marty - we need to be careful to avoid generalization with breeds. Not all GSDs are "smart as a whip". Just as not all borzois are stupid.

Same as in the horse world - where you hear all Arabians are hot/crazy (not)... all Appaloosas are stupid/stubborn (not) ... all Quarter Horses are smart/perfect (not).

There are individuals within every breed - formed by their surroundings and handling as well as their temperaments and abilities.

Labels only work against dogs and horses - and people...

 

[kaykay]

im trying so hard not to post on this thread. its not fair to jump on marty and i. she asked for advice and we gave advice. Just because you dont like the advice doesnt mean you jump on the poster.

Okay now im going to be brutally honest and quit tip toeing around. People dont like the advice marty and i give on dogs because our advice takes a big committement and TIME. Its not a quick fix or bandaid like a shock collar. No matter what the issue be it dogs, horses etc people all want a quick easy fix. Well there simply isnt one!

Appy if you simply dont like this dog and dont want to spend time with it then by all means rehome the dog. but this is what worried me and im sure its what worried marty

Got some information on having him euthanized and started feeling guilty.

To euthanize a dog only because you dont have a bond with it or dont have time to train it is just not acceptable to me.

Appy i am not picking on you and i do feel for your dilema. I am not out to hurt your feelings.

Once again if you ask for advice be prepared to get advice even if it isnt what you want to hear

 

[OhHorsePee]

Even though I feel your concern about your horses, I can not fathom a dog being euthanized because of this! If you don't want him PLEASE do give him to someone that does! I bet the breeder would be flipping out over this! When you buy an animal you take a responsibility to take care of it and meet it's needs. Look at it this way if you have your mind set on it. It will cost you to euthanize him, why not just place him on a free add and let someone have him. This way at least he has a chance to live and you don't have to worry about your horses. If you live near Ohio I will find someone for you. I'm begging you to please let him live. It's not his fault that he was born as a herder.

Fran

 

[mininik]

I don't think anyone here is laying a guilt trip on appy. She asked for opinions on what to do with her dog and was told it either needs time and training OR a new home. As for breed generalizations, well...

pick up any book on dog breeds and you'll see the same there. Even the breed descriptions at the AKC's website will have you thinking all Chihuahuas are this or Labradors are that!

http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/index.cfm

 

[liltnt]

I have glanced over the posts and dont think it has beenmentioned. Maybe he does it to get yor attention. Dogs know when they arent liked, and sometimes do things just to get the attention.

lets look at dogs that run when the door opens and refuses to come when called.

What do we do ? we chase them down and tell them what bad kids they are. Would you wnat to come knowing that you are bad? NO

y trainer had me take the dog to a enclosed field, I used a baseball field shut all the gates and turned him lose. Gave him time to run and then called him. Of course he didnt respond so I threw rocks in his direction, not to hit him but to keep him running until he was tired. Then called him again, when he did come, I praised and praised him, Didnt take long to get the idea that praise was better than running and would come when called. It was great.

One of the clicker books says a horse that bites is usually a bored horse. Give him a job.

Put the dog to work with you, have him do something to help. When he gets to close to the horses tell him no and when he stops praise him.

 

[runamuk]

oiy I should just block this thing.......

Shock collars are NOT a band aid they are a legitimate training tool..same as a whip or lunge line or bit in a horses mouth.........

Breed generalizations are just that..my german shepherd is about as dumb as a box of rocks....my borzoi is a self appointed lgd no she doesn't chase cats, stock, etc in fact yesterday a couple of dogs from god knows where got inside my fence and she went nuts trying to get them off our property.......hubby handled it......our poodle is smart and as hard headed an animal as they come(if I had wanted an airdale

)....and all my chows have been sweet and many enjoyed company.......

I don't do training sessions with my aussie everything we do daily is training related from going to the barn to being fed....if I didn't take this approach he could become a monster...he wants to work.......he has to work.....

There are some wonderful groups that can help re home the dog......and I agree if it isn't going to work then by all means find another home......I just thought she might want another training idea to try ......

 

[tagalong]

im trying so hard not to post on this thread.  its not fair to jump on marty and i.  she asked for advice and we gave advice.  Just because you dont like the advice doesnt mean you jump on the poster. 

HUH?? Where did a poster get "jumped on" - except for appy...

Okay now im going to be brutally honest and quit tip toeing around.  People dont like the advice marty and i give on dogs because our advice takes a big committement and TIME.  Its not a quick fix or bandaid like a shock collar.  No matter what the issue be it dogs, horses etc people all want a quick easy fix.  Well there simply isnt one!

And where - for instance - did I say there was a quick fix?? My advice is still the same - if they are not "clicking" find him a new home through a rescue group - who would be delighted to help out - and a new owner who may click with Duke will be very happy.... Thus all sides win. Last time I checked - that was a good thing!

I don't like labels - as I said. Some of the sweetest - and yet dumbest - dogs I ever met were some GSDs who had flunked out of training for the K9 squad... they were darlings - but even their owners said that they were not the brightest bulbs on the chandelier.

When I moved here - and was excited to find Agility classes taught by 2 top trainers and National level competitors - I happily signed up my girls - who both had a lot of trial experience and loved running courses. I arrived at the arena for the first class with my borzoi girl... who pranced and danced and knew this was agility time and was very happy...

One trainer met us going into the building - and stopped me. She stared in horror at Folli (the borzoi). She said to me - oh YOU are the new one... well THIS is not a beginner class - it is Advanced... I nodded and smiled and said -yes - I know - she will fit in here - we can run a short course so you can see... but the trainer cut me off. And years later - her words still haunt me - "please do not tell me THAT is the dog you are even THINKING of having in MY class.... they cannot do this - they are not smart enough...." I offered to run a course to show her. She shut me down. And throughout that class over the next few weeks (demmit - I was going to prove her wrong!) she proceeded to ignore us - unless she sneered at us. Folli did not care.... she won the hearts of our classmates and showed them labels do not work... and once that session was done - we stayed away from that trainer.

To euthanize a dog only because you dont have a bond with it or dont have time to train it is just not acceptable to me. 

I would NEVER condone this - which is why I brought up rehoming and rescue groups....

 

[AppyLover2]

I really appreciate all the input. But, I gotta say I don't think any of you (forgive me if I missed someone) even sounded like they were considering the safety of the mini first. She (they) are my primary concern.

I'm not going to go into detail to defend myself about some of the comments made; but I will say I feel like a school girl who just got her knuckles rapped with a ruler.

Hopefully the problem has been solved.

Will know more by the weekend. I'll let you know then.

Thanks again for your comments!!!!!

 

[OhHorsePee]

Oh, I do understand your concern, Appy! Really I do! I have a neighbor who lets her dogs run free and does not concern herself where they are or what they are doing. Just this morning their were doggie prints all around the outside of the barn. It is a big concern! And I agree, you do need to worry about your horses and should. But, I still have a soft place in my heart for dogs. I have a papillon (suppose to be. I know there is something else mixed in some where) male that I got him because his owners were elderly and the man had COPD. They could not control him and he was a year, or maybe a few months over when I got him. I can not even teach him to sit and I have dealt with dogs for years upon years. The older some dogs get it is harder to teach them. Again, I say some dogs. I would just give him away instead of euthanizing him.

Fran

 

[mininik]

Actually, I think the safety of your Minis AS WELL AS your dog's well-being are the ONLY subjects of concern here! All along the key messages have been that if you aren't feeling a "bond" with this dog and don't think you ever will through time and training or if you feel that you can't control your dog or manage him so that he cannot hurt your horses, please rehome him ASAP. Just don't put him down!